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Post by vandergraafk on Aug 20, 2006 1:13:27 GMT -5
After the 26th viewing of Forever Charmed, here is my top six list of disappointments. The first four are major disappointments. The last two are merely quibbles. (Please note: I still love this episode very much!) There are six because today is 06 June 06!
1) Gram's giddiness over the Charmed Ones
This is a major error. Grams already knows that she has given birth to the Charmed Ones (once removed, of course!) She learned of this in That 70s Episode. Chronologically, That 70s Episode predates Piper, Patty and Leo visiting Grams in Forever Charmed. I estimate that Piper is about 9 years old. This places the episode in the year 1981 approximately. That 70s Episode occurs in February 1975 (when Patty is just pregnant with Phoebe). I also estimate that when Piper and Leo "coop" in on Patty and Victor it is at the time of Phoebe's conception. That explains why Patty is touching her belly whilst holding Victor's hands as Piper and Leo explain the situation. At this time, there is no way Patty could know in advance that she was to be the mother of the Charmed Ones.
Grams has no such excuse, however. She has known since February 1975 (in That 70s Episode) that Patty is the mother of the Charmed Ones. And, worse, she needs to retain this knowledge. For, at the conclusion of That 70s Episode, Grams knows that she must still bind the girls' powers upon the birth of Phoebe.
So, why did the writers mess this up? Worse, why make Grams faint when Patty appears. Surely, Grams is a seasoned witch enough to know that many things are possible. Better yet: when the sisters express amazement over Grams's claim in That 70s Episode that she will be able to write a spell to return them to 1999, Grams retort is revealing. "We're witches, dear. We can do anything!" Phoebe demurs silently, but only because she knows that Patty will not be able to stop the water demon in P3H2O. Surely, Grams knows that anything is possible. Fainting is certainly an inappropriate response.
2) Billie's inauthenticity over the vanquish of the sister
Is there anybody out there who believes this grief was credible? I surely don't, and this bit is the single worst part of Forever Charmed. I now cringe when seeing Billie breakdown and "cry?".
3) the absence of Homeland Security and Agent Murphy
Okay, I know ever since Katrina Homeland Security has got major problems, but seriously how do we explain the absolute lack of response to the explosion emanating from the Potion Battle portion of the Ultimate Battle Mark 1 and the sheer devastation of the manor in the Hollow Battle portion of the Ultimate Battle Mark 1. Did nobody notice anything?
4) the teasing lunch scene
We are shown Wyatt, Chris and younger girl receiving lunch on their way to school. Since a sleepover of Phoebe's eldest daughter probably can be ruled out (sleepover with the boys?) this is probably Prudence Melinda, Piper's daughter. So why not show Prudence Melinda with Piper in the kitchen while she is describing her return to the restaurant business? I understand why the boys would prefer to make their potions alone.
5) the 43 minute finale
Since the WB (Warlock Brotherhood) had no pressing programming for the 9 pm hour (all they could come up with was a Classic Charmed repeat), why couldn't they have opened the purse strings a little (and thereby apologize for at least 6 years of demonic activity with respect to Charmed and especially for announcing the cancellation of a show on 7 March, whose writers had already committed their show to a series ending. What! Wasn't there enough bad blood between the Charmed Ones and the WB with more salt being needed to throw on the wound. Gosh, a two-hour finale would have been just grand. Maybe then we could have seen Agent Murphy again.
6) a picture of Prue
I would have settled with the picture of the girls from Something Wicca. I would have even settled for a picture of Prue as the Banshee tracking dog. But, come on, not even a picture - maybe even out of focus - of Prue. Major bummer!
Well, that's my list. Please feel free to comment.
P.S. The verb "to coop" is a neo-logism I have come up with to explain the sort of time travel by cupid. Since we had only one instance of this before - when Phoebe revisits past loves - there really wasn't a name for this. It's clearly not orbing. It's not something Tempus could do. It's not the Avatar alternate reality thing that Cole did in Centennial Charmed. It's not Billie's projection power. For lack of a term, I called it "to coop". Hope you like it.
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 4, 2006 0:46:16 GMT -5
Let's add a couple of more disconcerting elements to an otherwise great episode.
7) If Chris died in It's a Bad, Bad World Part 2, then his timeline ceases to exist. Thus, when Chris returns with Wyatt from a future where Wyatt suddenly loses his powers, the Chris who returns is a younger Chris. He does not and cannot know Grams. Nor can he or does he know where his grandfather resides.
8) In this episode, Dumain pursues Coop in order to obtain his "love travel" ring. Yet, how does Dumain even know that this ring exists. Perhaps Billie told him. Worse: unless he tortured Coop, how will he even begin to comprehend how it works. Finally, if demons cannot love or even experience it, how can Dumain use something he cannot fathom to love travel. Perhaps Christy has a better chance. And, she does travel with him. But, fifteen years of TRIAD brainwashing should have driven any notion of love out of her body and soul.
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Post by Scott on Sept 5, 2006 1:13:26 GMT -5
Comment #7 was greeted with interesting thoughts:
I completely understand what you're saying but Chris as well as Wyatt should know who Grams is and where Victor lives regardless of whether they have been in the past before or not. I simply can't believe that in the 23 or so years following season 8 Piper never again summuned Grams or talked to her children about her. They also spend a lot of time with Victor in season 8, which I assume means that they will grow up pretty close to grampa and will be spending time with him in the future when they can already learn and know where he lives.
To which another critic added:
... (t)here's no reason why Piper could not have summoned Grams again over the years. It wasn't at all surprising that Chris recognized her. It was ridiculous that Wyatt didn't.
Chris didn't get to know Victor during Hyde School Reunion, he already knew him. He tells Victor they are really close in the future. It was Victor who got to know Chris in that episode and that Victor still exists. In the new timeline, both Chris and Wyatt are growing up spending lots of time with Victor. Of course Chris knows him and knows where he lives. I remember exactly where my grandmother lived and every room in her house and she died while I was a child. There's nothing inconsistent about Chris knowing where Victor lives.
vandergraafk replied:
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Victor gets to know Chris really well because of the incident, i.e., Piper dying when Chris was 14. Chris's actions in the past have altered Piper's timeline. She will not die but will live on to mispell Zankou. So, Victor may or not get really close to Chris. He may or may not know where his grandfather lives. Time travel stories are really tricky.
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Post by Scott on Sept 5, 2006 1:17:39 GMT -5
Critic #1 replied:
I think it's pretty obvious that Chris and Wyatt will be very close to Victor considering how much time they spent as babies with grampa and how affectionate their future versions were towards him. Victor is one who actually learns from his past mistakes and I believe it will be important to him to make up for his absence in the girls' lives by being around for his grandkids, Wyatt and Chris included of course. He already helped out Piper a lot when Leo was being kept frozen and I choose to believe that Leo being back will not change how he feels about his grandsons.
To which vandergraafk replied to both the first and second critic:
I agree. But then, Victor should not have looked surprised when Chris, Wyatt and Patty pay him a visit. If Victor recognizes Chris, it's not because of Season 6. It's because he was close to both Wyatt and Chris. Thus, he should have immediately recognized Wyatt, too!
I guess it depends on what is meant by "get to know". As Piper tells Victor in Hyde School Reunion, she wants him to ferret out from Chris why Chris dislikes his mom so. Victor is surprised to learn that he and Chris get along fabulously, especially after the event. Remember further that Victor tries talking to Piper's belly when future Chris responds and walks in. Victor offers Chris a cigar, which Chris declines and even chides Victor and warns him to watch out for cigars might just kill him. Then, there's the scene in the French restaurant. Since Victor is trying his best to impress and Chris really is unimpressed especially with mouton, I guess Victor doesn't know him too well. Chris reasurres his grandfather by simply stating that it's not what gestures Victor makes, but simply the fact that he is there that cements their bond and grandfather and grandson.
Victor surely is getting to know his grandson in this episode, as you quite rightly suggest. However, since Chris's timeline has been altered who knows what he knows about his grandfather. The problem is that Forever Charmed gently seduces us into reliving past episodes and allowing them to caress us when, in fact, there may be no logical underpinning to our thoughts. This just goes to show you how wonderful the support characters were in Charmed. James Read was marvelous. So, too, were Jennifer Rhodes and Finola Hughes. Drew Fuller really did grow on us, and Wes Ramsey was a hit right away! Combine these characters with three truly great actresses and you've got a hit! Kudos to the casting director!
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Post by Reality Bites on Sept 15, 2006 6:53:04 GMT -5
"I agree. But then, Victor should not have looked surprised when Chris, Wyatt and Patty pay him a visit. If Victor recognizes Chris, it's not because of Season 6. It's because he was close to both Wyatt and Chris. Thus, he should have immediately recognized Wyatt, too!"
I don't understand...why should Victor have recognized adult Wyatt when he never seen what his oldest grandchild would look at that age prior to Forever Charmed? Recognizing Chris and Patty is plausible, but if Victor would have immediately recognized adult Wyatt what would even be the basis for such an reaction?
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 19, 2006 14:16:30 GMT -5
Actually, the point was to heighten the absurdity. Victor can't possibly recognize Wyatt. Nor should Chris be able to recognize Victor or even know where he lives. To argue that future Victor will be close to both Chris and Wyatt does not help present Victor. Now, if that's true, then it's perhaps understandable that future Chris would recognize present Victor. But, then future Wyatt should too! And, in Forever Charmed, this does not seem to be the case!
Now, why couldn't I have just said that in the first place?
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Post by Scott on Sept 26, 2006 11:50:23 GMT -5
Why was Patty depicted as a dingbat? First, she rather incredulously is surprised that Piper has traveled back through time. "You must be a pretty powerful witch..." Of course, Piper is. But, then, this was not the attitude that Patty took in That 70s Episode. She was rather cool, calm and collected about time travel. Second, why does Patty state "if we can find the grandmother..." Surely, Patty knows where her own mom lives. Second, why would she refer to her own mother as "the grandmother". Fortunately, when Grams faints upon seeing past Patty, Patty utters "Mom!". Third, by the end of the episode, Patty is the wiser, as she reflects on doors opening and closing. I wish they had been consistent with this character throughout the episode!
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Post by Xenith on Oct 10, 2006 13:12:20 GMT -5
What makes you say that Wyatt doesn't recognize Victor?
Wyatt: Hey Grandpa, how you doing?
To me this is a very casual greeting that indicates that adult Wyatt also has a familiarity towards Victor. To me "how you doing" is more something to say to someone that you already know What are you seeing in FC that indicates to you that Wyatt does not know Victor?
On the otherhand we do know that somehow Chris knows Grams while Wyatt doesn't. I'm sure Piper would summon Grams in the future if she could, which does lead me to believe that Grams will soon be reincarnated (Possibly one of Phoebe's daughters? Piper was her own great-grandmother so possibly Phoebe's ladybug is her own great-grandmother.) As for how Chris could have met her before, possibly sometime when Wyatt wasn't around (He would have gone to college at least a year ahead of Chris) Grams travelled from the past into the future for some reason (Afterwards erasing her own memory.) It's either that or you are going to have deal with a repressed/merged memories theory...
First of all we don't get to see her full reaction to the Charmed Ones telling her they are her daughters in That 70's Episode (it cuts to commercial after Phoebe says it). Although when we return we are shown that some doubt does linger that they are actually still warlocks. But they are now outside the jail and have been bailed out, so surely there was a lot more dialogue that took place prior that we didn't see. When she does accept it she says "I've seen some magic in my life, but this is a miracle.", which isn't really much different than her FC reaction to me? If anything her 70's Episode attitude was more severe since to me miracle more or less implies something on level of an act of a god/God rather than just a powerful spell cast by a witch.
Of course she knows where she lives, but who says that Grams just sits at home on her butt all day? She could be out either shopping, socializing, or possibly even out hunting demons who knows where. Cell phones weren't invented yet, so yeah they did need to find where Penny was at... (Yes they could have summoned her or scried for her, but both would have taken much more time than simply going to her with a simple thought with the ring.)
So, if I'm the mother of the Charmed Ones, and we could find the grandmother, then maybe we'd be able to recreate the Power of Three, at least in theory.
She says grandmother to more or less imply the 3 generations thing. She is expressing to Piper that they can use Patty & Penny's blood relation to Piper to use the power of three. Now if she had called Penny the name Grams instead of saying the grandmother, then I would understand taking issue with it. (Like Chris/Wyatt should have called her Great-Grams...) But the point was Patty is saying that she is the mother of the Charmed Ones, so logically (in Kern's mind) with the Charmed One's grandmother they could use the P3. (Which yeah ... I just remembered how ass that plot contrivance really was.)
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Post by Scott on Oct 10, 2006 16:31:59 GMT -5
Xenith, I have been wrestling with this whole future Chris/Wyatt stuff for some time. I know what bothers me, but I haven't been successful in conveying it. After the 75th viewing of this episode, it is slowly dawning on me. It's future Chris who bothers me. He recognizes Grams, while Wyatt does not. Why and why not? Chris cannot possibly know the Grams from Witchstock (Season 6) since this Chris must be younger than that Chris. (Of course, if you assume that Chris survived his death at the conclusion of Season 6, then all bets are off.) If Chris does know her from the family album, then Wyatt should too. That's as precisely as I can state the issue.
Now, here's another one for you to ponder:
But on a more important matter: how is it that Chris can orb in Forever Charmed? It was established in That 70's Episode that only one person can have powers at one time. By that I mean, little Prue has powers, but back in time Prue does not. Little Piper has powers, but big Piper does not. If this were still true, then future Chris could not have his powers since little Chris had them. Same is true for Wyatt when he received his powers back. Little Wyatt would not have lost his and would have reclaimed them. Bad, writers! Bad!!
As for the comparison to That 70s Patty and FC's Patty, I will take the That 70s Patty over the first part of Forever Charmed. She comes across as a dingbat. This is redeemed only when Patty comments that she hasn't gotten over learning that she is dead. Her finest moment comes when discussing doors closing and opening.
Likewise, there was no need to initially portray Grams as a dingbat. First, she already knew her granddaughters were the Charmed Ones. Second, pride, not shock, would have been her response, as well as a fair amount of (venal) curiousity. (What's IBM selling at...?) The writers should at least have revisited That 70s Episode to get a sense of what the characters had once been depicted as.
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Post by Xenith on Oct 12, 2006 11:47:18 GMT -5
That's actually really easy to explain... When Chris comes back in Season 6 he casts a spell that allows him to keep his powers (likely at the expense of his younger self not being to access his). So why when Chris & Wyatt return to the past would they not use a spell which will also allow them to keep their abilities (depriving their younger selves of theirs)? I can't recall us seeing either little Wyatt or little Chris using their powers at all after the arrival of their older counterparts... I'm still really not sure what exactly you are seeing that really is that much of ding-bat behavior from Patty. She is certainly much happier and more carefree than her That 70's counterpart, but then again at this point she is still in love with Victor and doesn't seem to have strong feelings for Sam yet that would be eating her inside. The grams thing was bad writing as yeah we know she definitely already knew. (Barring a massive head trauma that we didn't get to see ) About the only way this can be sort of explained is that although she knew that they were born the Charmed Ones, with their powers being bound and not getting a long she wasn't sure it would actually happen? As for not asking about IBM, the circumstances were vastly different. Her conversation in that 70's Show was in a more relaxed setting, she isn't told of the real danger prior to her questioning the Charmed Ones. While the grams in FC is immediately hit with people travelling from multiple times and the news that something really bad is going to happen to the Charmed Ones.
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Post by vandergraafk on Oct 13, 2006 13:03:35 GMT -5
I can certainly accept the casting of a spell by Chris or Wyatt or both. And, it's true that we do not see little Wyatt attempting to use his powers when big Wyatt is. In addition, the Charmed Ones were novices during That 70s Episode and may not have been experienced enough to know that a simple casting of a spell would suffice. Besides, Chris is probably well versed with time travel. So, he probably would have knowledge of an appropriate spell. Still, all of this is assumed in the episode, not really explained.
And, as you seem to acknowledge, Grams has to know that her granddaughters are the Charmed Ones since That 70s Episode predates Forever Charmed. It is not plausible that Grams would cast a memory erase spell on herself - indeed, she prefers the opposite in Forever Charmed - especially since she will need to bind the sisters powers upon the birth of Phoebe in order to prevent Nicholas from obtaining them.
I just didn't like Patty walking down the staircase and acting so shocked that Piper "must be a powerful witch". Patty's not that DUMB! She knows the Warren lineage. Yes, she's happy and in love with Victor. But, that's no excuse!
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Post by vandergraafk on Oct 16, 2006 11:40:40 GMT -5
Lisa M added more of the same in the Charmed Cafe forum:
I figured they just assumed the reason they didn't have their powers was because their little selves had theirs, but the real reason they didn't have their powers is because they traveled back in time. It was established that they don't have their powers when they travel back in time, unless they use a special spell to keep their powers in the past, like Chris did in Chris Crossed. That could also be why Chris had his powers in Forever Charmed. BTW, adult Wyatt also had his powers in Imaginary Fiends.
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Post by Scott on Nov 22, 2006 16:41:59 GMT -5
By the way, in case you did not read Brad Kern's comments in Ask Brad in Charmed #14, he conceded that none of Phoebe's or Paige's children had names. Nor did the grandchildren have names, save the dark-haired child who had been sitting in Piper's lap and flicked the door shut with a movement of her hand. Her name is Prudence, Brad's final tribute to Prue. Fittingly, it is the final scene in Charmed.
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Post by Scott on Nov 22, 2006 16:47:15 GMT -5
Suppose that the child receiving lunch along with Wyatt and Chris really is Prudence Melinda. Then, is it legitimate to ask why this child does not accompany her older brothers when they return from the future to find out what happened to Wyatt's powers?
Xenith and Maracev both opined thusly:
Possible explanations if she is:
a) Piper & Leo didn't know she existed yet, so they didn't want to chance her future by having her go back in time if they didn't have to.
b) She might have just not been around at the time that everything happened. Maybe she was in school at the time? Or busy fighting her own demon?
c) She wants a normal life that doesn't involve magic such as time travel...
d) She's not allowed to do demonic fighting yet and for the time being Chris and Wyatt are the ones doing it. After all, she's the only one who is solely a witch and has no orbing powers or independent means of traveling, like her brothers.
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Post by Scott on Nov 22, 2006 17:04:02 GMT -5
Vandergraafk replied with the following contribution. However, it should be noted that this undermines the previous four possible explanations.
Let me get this straight! Suppose Prudence Melinda, the girl receiving lunch along with Wyatt and Chris, really is Leo and Piper's daughter. Why doesn't she travel back in time? To answer this question, I have to place this in the context of the episode. Bear with me.
When Chris and Wyatt return, Leo has already been taken back by the Angel of Destiny, correct? Because the Ultimate Battle Mark I was undone and had, in fact, not been played out, Leo could not have been freed from his temporal prison. Thus, Leo and Piper would not have had an opportunity to procreate. No Melinda was born in this scenario.
Now, when the Ultimate Battle Mark 2 occurs and Christy is vanquished along with the Triad before the Hollow is unleashed, Wyatt never in fact loses his powers. The time travel of Chris and Wyatt to find out why Wyatt had lost his powers was no longer needed. Yet, paradoxically, they are still present for the reunion (another flaw in this episode).
When the Ultimate Battle Mark 2 finally does occur and Leo is returned by the Angel of Destiny, Chris and Wyatt should not have been present at the reunion in the manor. Phoebe, Paige, Piper, Patty or Grams could have commented on their absence since they would have seen in their between ultimate battles. The explanation would have been simple: the future had been altered. Now, Leo and Piper have the opportunity to procreate.
So, here's my contribution:
e) Leo and Piper were unable to consummate their love and have a third child: Prudence Melinda. Since she does not exist in the future that Chris and Wyatt have come from, she cannot travel with them.
P.S. Another (minor) complaint about Forever Charmed. Why does Phoebe have to act like a moron when trying to find out what Piper had done? She's experienced time travel before. True, she did wonder how Chris got the note in Chris Crossed when the sisters had just placed it under the floorboard. Leo gets cut off when he tries to explain time travel, etc. But, still she comes across as a complete dolt in Forever Charmed.
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