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Post by Scott on Nov 23, 2006 15:17:24 GMT -5
But it seems like I can never get the last word in, or does it. In the event, Xenith responded thusly:
Oh lordy here we go into time travel mechanics again... I guess it could be possible that she didn't exist in their future, although saying it's because of Leo not being freed can seem a bit iffy to me because somehow Piper was able to love-travel to the Scrabble Future prior to that where Phoebe & Paige were supposedly already back from being not dead and the Not-So-Ultimate Battle had already been fought.
So if somehow that future already existed the so too should a future point prior to that in which Chris & Wyatt came back in time, and thus if the Ultimate Battle was again already fought then Leo should have been unfrozen from their time as well...
All of which led to this rejoinder which I hope will be the last word, but probably will not be:
But, Xenith, she love traveled with Leo to a future where elder Piper and elder Leo are playing scrabble. In this future, Prudence Melinda, if we suppose that such a daughter exists, must be alive. Leo has already been freed by the Angel of Destiny after the completion of the Ultimate Battle Mark 1, one in which Phoebe is dead and Paige is missing, but presumed equally deceased. But, this is not the future that Chris and Wyatt have returned from. In their future, Leo cannot have been freed from his temporal prison. The Hollow has been used, but returned to its box. The Ultimate Battle Mark 2 has not played out. Indeed, the Angel of Destiny reclaims Leo. Wyatt has lost his powers and thus has to return to learn what has gone wrong. (Presumably, Chris and Wyatt have done an exhaustive examination of their own present before determining that a resolution of the problem was only to be found by traveling back in time.)
No, time travel is the key to understanding this whole issue. I know the mechanics may seem tricky; but since Brad wanted to use love travel in Forever Charmed, we have to understand it in all of its nuances, even if the writers did not!
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Post by Scott on Nov 27, 2006 18:56:55 GMT -5
Another contributor suggested the following:
I disagree with your assessment. When Future Wyatt and Future Chris time travel to the present in "Forever Charmed," yes Leo has been reclaimed by the Angel of Destiny - - but that doesn't mean Leo is never rescued in the future that they came from.
Since Piper, Grams, and Patty were able to avert Phoebe's and Paige's deaths, the entire timeline has changed. That means that there is still hope for the Final Battle to play out (and it does, when Billie is forced to kill Christy later on).
It is entirely conceivable that, in their future reality, Future Wyatt and Future Chris regained their father following Christy's death (and witnessed the birth of their baby sister, Melinda).
Of course, this still doesn't explain how Future Wyatt loses his powers in that future timeline, and then regains his powers before the end of the episode. I'll have to rewatch the episode to try to make sense of that (since I forgot how Future Wyatt's powers return to him).
And prompted me to invoke Schroedinger and his famous thought experiment regarding quantum reality.
Future Wyatt's powers were returned to him when the Ultimate Battle Mark 2 took place. By this I mean simply that the Hollow never infects the Jenkins' sisters or the Charmed Ones. The Battle ends before the Hollow is invoked. Consequently, baby Wyatt never loses his powers to the Hollow infected Jenkins' sisters.
Yet, you do pose a rather interesting point. If the Ultimate Battle does play out as it is supposed to, then Leo will have been rescued and the possibility of procreation restored. The difficulty in assessing this derives from the multiplicity of possible futures. It's a bit like Schroedinger's kitten and that's way too much quantum mechanics for this space perhaps. Still, here goes.
Let's start with the two scenarios: Ultimate Battle Mark 1 and Ultimate Battle Mark 2. If Ultimate Battle Mark 1 prevails, then Leo is returned, procreation occurs and future Wyatt will regain his powers when the Hollow is returned to the box. But, then there would be no reason for Wyatt, Chris or Prudence Melinda to return from the future (family gathering reasons aside).
If Ultimate Battle Mark 2 prevails, then Leo is returned, procreation occurs and future Wyatt never loses his powers in the first place. Again, there would be no reason for Wyatt, Chris or Prudence Melinda to return from the future (family gathering reasons aside).
It's the in-between scenario - Ultimate Battle Mark 1.5 - that causes all of the confusion. Here, the Hollow has been unleashed and infected both pairs of sisters. Yet, future Piper, past perfect Patty, past Penny and present Leo witness and cause an interruption of the Ultimate Battle Mark 1. Their chant causes the Hollow to return to the box (and flatly contradicts Charmed and Dangerous where Leo tells us - and the Seer confirms - that both good and evil must read the incantation on the box to return the Hollow to it) and restores all powers - presumably, since we do not know the power of this incantation. (Had good and evil read the incantation on the box, then we would know for certain that all powers had been restored as explained in Charmed and Dangerous.)
Since future Wyatt returns sans powers, then the Warren witch incantation cannot have restored lost powers. The sisters will still be able to launch fireballs perhaps unless the Hollow has taken this power, along with baby Wyatt's, back to the box. And, the Jenkins' sisters might be able to use baby Wyatt's powers.
The interruption of the Ultimate Battle Mark 1 represents an opening of Schroedinger's box. The cat is declared alive or dead and present realities become fixed as quantum diversity collapses. Does this mean that the myriad possibilities of the future collapse into one or but a few possible futures out of an untold multitude? I haven't a clue.
What I was trying to suggest is a future possibility emanating from Ultimate Battle Mark 1.5 where future Wyatt has no powers and will return with his brother to ascertain the cause (and participate in the family gathering). In this particular future, I suggest that there is no Prudence Melinda since Leo will remain imprisoned and procreation made impossible.
Perhaps there is a future scenario emanating from Ultimate Battle 1.5 wherein Leo can be freed. I don't see how this is possible, given what the Angel of Destiny decreed. But, maybe there is such a scenario. In this hypothetical scenario, Christy and the Triad are destroyed, but not before the Hollow has been allowed to infect each pair of sisters. Future Wyatt would still have to return with Chris to ascertain why he has lost his powers; yet, a Prudence Melinda - who does exist in this scenario - chooses either not to accompany them or cannot, as options a - d and Lisa's new e suggest.
To me, that is extremely murky. Hence, I will stick with my own explanation. I hope that helps.
P.S. The new "e", suggested by Lisa, is as follows:
e. She died before she reached adulthood.
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Post by vandergraafk on Dec 5, 2006 12:28:58 GMT -5
According to the second volume of the Book of Three, the only authorized compendium on Charmed, Melinda is indeed Piper's daughter. We may continue to speculate that her full name is Prudence Melinda, a speculation that few would dispute. One surprise, however, in this volume is the description of Matthew, the boy who orbed the book in Magic School after Leo solicited volunteers, as the first grandson of Leo and Piper. This eliminates one worrisome development in Charmedverse, namely, that teleportation can likewise be taught in Magic School. Fortunately, Matthew, who must either be Chris' or Wyatt's child, is half-whitelighter. I speculate that Matthew is indeed Wyatt's son. However, we learn too that Bianca and Chris indeed marry in the new future (even though Chris' death in Season 6 still needs to be explained!).
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Post by vandergraafk on Dec 5, 2006 18:45:01 GMT -5
I overlooked a wonderful comment made by Xenith above. Even if I can still retain dissatisfaction by Patty to her mother as "the grandmother", I can understand the logic in her wishing to use Coop's ring to find her faster. After all, as Xenith points out, Grams might not be home. Scrying might take a while. Coop's ring, if used properly, can get them there faster. Of course, they found Grams but not in the same past as Patty. Hence, I refer to them as Past Perfect Patty, Past Grams, Present Leo and Future Piper.
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Post by vandergraafk on Dec 5, 2006 19:28:10 GMT -5
Wow, did my reference to "The Book of Three, Volume 2" by Diane Gallagher et al. unleash a firestorm of sorts. Maracev and ShantaD felt compelled to reply. Maracev looked only at Chris and Bianca, while Shanta D invoked canon, or at least her definition of it.
First, Maracev responded:
We don't know that Chris and Bianca will marry in the new timeline. It is entire possible that they don't even get to know each other in this new timeline in which Wyatt is not evil. I always felt that Bianca met Chris through Wyatt, working for him. Them falling for each other was a betrayal to Wyatt.
Then, ShantaD slammed in:
If it doesn't make it on the air, it isn't canon. That includes companion guides, scrapped scenes and edited lines. We know the original script had the girl as Melinda but the decision was made to cut it. What counts is what is actually aired.
To which vandergraafk made this (first) reply:
That's absolute rubbish! The Book of Three, Volume 2 is the second authorized compendium of Charmed. If it indicates that Melinda is Leo and Piper's daughter, then SO BE IT! If we are told that Matthew is the first grandson of Leo and Piper, then SO BE IT! If we are told that Bianca and Chris do marry in the rectified timeline, then SO BE IT!
Canon, if you want to use this scary inquisition-like word (where are Monty Python when you need them or at least the Spanish Inquisition?), is not as we define it. The writers and executive producers of the show do have a say. Now, they can be wrong. If you read what Diane Gallagher et al. list as a whitelighter's power to heal (with limitations), you can easily find the contradiction internal to the show. Leo and Paige should never have been able to heal Belthazor/Cole completely in Charmed Again, Part 2. But, if the writers want to name this character or that character, then who am I to complain?
Maracev, sorry to disappoint, but there are several ways Bianca and Chris could have come across one another's paths independently of the evil Wyatt stuff. As an assassin witch, Bianca could have been intercepted by a Chris determined to thwart her in her aim, whatever that might have been. As between Cole and Phoebe, opposites attract and ultimately Chris's love for Bianca allows her to open up her heart and feel the pain from all the killing she has done. This would surely be consistent with the message future Bianca had for her mother in Chris Crossed when she scoldingly reminds her mother not to lie when a younger Bianca asks how it feels to kill.
Maracev queried further by quoting from my comment:
"If we are told that Bianca and Chris do marry in the rectified timeline, then SO BE IT!"
But when were we told that? During season 6? They didn't even get to marry during season 6. I'm not sure if you're refering to something on the official companion book, but as far as what we saw on the show, they were never married.
I replied thusly:
Maracev, I am quoting directly from The Book of Three, Volume 2 the second official companion to the series Charmed. On page 19 we are told:
"In the bright future of 2026, created when Chris saves Wyatt from turning evil, Chris marries Bianca, a Phoenix Coven assassin turned to good by his love."
We also learn the following tidbit (also on Page 19):
"By 2050, Piper and Leo will have nine grandchildren aged four to fourteen. Matthew, their first grandson, attends Magic School and orbs. A granddaughter is telekinetic."
In Charmed Magazine #14, Brad Kern states that the granddaughter who closes the door to end the series, the granddaughter who is telekinetic, is none other than Prudence!
Now, before these two quotes, there appeared this blurb:
"The Charmed Ones reclaim Magic School, and Leo begins teaching again, a career he maintains until he retires. Piper sells P3 and opens a restaurant. Their daughter, Melinda, is born when Chris is three."
You say Melinda, I say Prudence Melinda. Melinda, Prudence Melinda: it's still the same girl.
P.S. Did you enjoy my reference to the Source?
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Post by vandergraafk on Feb 14, 2007 19:08:51 GMT -5
Both Kill Billie, Volume 2 and Forever Charmed provide us with valuable information regarding the Hollow, witches and whitelighters. Already it had been established that whitelighter powers and magical powers are not one and the same. For example, the powers that Paige has a witch are channeled through her powers as a whitelighter. If she is stripped of her powers as a witch, she should retain her powers as a whitelighter, despite the nonsense put forth in A Witch in Time. But, what about the Hollow? What if the Hollow absorbs a whitelighter/witch's powers as in Charmed and Dangerous and Kill Billie, Volume 2?
Specifically, does the Hollow absorb all magical powers at once? In Charmed and Dangerous, did the Source's darklighter steal Paige's powers as witch and whitelighter in Charmed and Dangerous when possessed by the Hollow? In that fascinating episode, we did not learn the answer. Since Paige had not yet mastered the ability to orb between rooms, let alone orb her sisters aboard the cosmic taxi, she never tries to orb her sisters to the safety of the attic when the Source arrives when the sisters call for a witch's lost powers. Thus, we cannot conclude on the evidence of this episode alone that the Hollow can absorb both a whitelighter's and a witch's powers at once. However, in Kill Billie, Volume 2, Dumain assures us on the contrary that the Jenkins' sisters, having absorbed the Hollow, should have been able to take all of Wyatt's powers, including the power to orb, when Wyatt tries to protect himself. Of course, Dumain is unaware that baby Chris has orbed little Wyatt to safety. But, the point remains: according to Dumain, the Hollow steals all powers. Thus, the Source's darklighter would have stolen Paige's ability to telekinetically move objects, as well as her ability to orb.
Why bother with this? Well, I was bothered that Wyatt claimed that his powers were back simply because he could orb from one location to another. Why did that prove his powers were back? Suppose he had never lost the ability to orb? Well, according to the previous discussion, he must have lost his ability to orb when the Jenkins' sisters absorbed little Wyatt's powers. Dumain suggests this is so. Logically, Wyatt's orbing in Forever Charmed confirms this.
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Post by elder on Feb 15, 2007 22:24:52 GMT -5
This episode moved too fast for me to enjoy it. They were in the present, then they went to the past, the future, the past, then they came back to the present...and each scene lasted a few minutes. As for the Wyatt and Chris orbing... I find it strange that they claim that they were fighting demons in the future when Wyatt lost his powers. Well, what about Chris? Is he chopped liver? Why not use his powers! And how do they manage to survive the fight they were in AND find a way to get back to the present day without being toasted? I don't think they could think quickly enough to say "let's go to the point where the powers were lost" before being fried. I really think that Kill Billie 2 was the series finale and they just decided to toss this together at the last minute. More stuff: I didn't like that they show all the pics at the end but none of them are of older folks. No Paige and Phoebe during the 50 year-old phase... The girl at the end waves her hand one way and door closes in the opposite direction...wierd.
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Post by vandergraafk on Feb 16, 2007 19:55:40 GMT -5
Gosh, Elder, now you're going to make me revisit Forever Charmed again to watch the direction she flicks her wrist!
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Post by DevotedFan on Mar 7, 2007 8:04:25 GMT -5
Future Wyatt's powers were returned to him when the Ultimate Battle Mark 2 took place. By this I mean simply that the Hollow never infects the Jenkins' sisters or the Charmed Ones. The Battle ends before the Hollow is invoked. Consequently, baby Wyatt never loses his powers to the Hollow infected Jenkins' sisters. I disagree. Both the Jenkins and Halliwell sisters were already infected with the Hollow when Piper, Grams, and Patty arrived on the Ultimate Battle Mark 2 scene. They arrived moments before the explosion took place, at this moment in time the sisters had already absorbed demonic powers, and the Jenkins had already consumed Wyatt's powers. Baby Wyatt does still lose his powers, it is simply the fact that once the Hollow was contained, baby Wyatt regained his powers. Just as Piper and Phoebe regained their powers when the Seer and Phoebe contained the Hollow in Charmed and Dangerous.
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Post by DevotedFan on Mar 7, 2007 8:08:37 GMT -5
Future Wyatt's powers were returned to him when the Ultimate Battle Mark 2 took place. By this I mean simply that the Hollow never infects the Jenkins' sisters or the Charmed Ones. The Battle ends before the Hollow is invoked. Consequently, baby Wyatt never loses his powers to the Hollow infected Jenkins' sisters. I disagree. Both the Jenkins and Halliwell sisters were already infected with the Hollow when Piper, Grams, and Patty arrived on the Ultimate Battle Mark 2 scene. They arrived moments before the explosion took place, at this moment in time the sisters had already absorbed demonic powers, and the Jenkins had already consumed Wyatt's powers. Baby Wyatt does still lose his powers, it is simply the fact that once the Hollow was contained, baby Wyatt regained his powers. Just as Piper and Phoebe regained their powers when the Seer and Phoebe contained the Hollow in Charmed and Dangerous. IGNORE THIS!
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Post by Scott on Mar 8, 2007 13:01:49 GMT -5
I suppose the confusion is on my part since in the Charmed Cafe I laid out what I meant by the Ultimate Battle designations. To recap: Ultimate Battle Mark I: Potion Portion The sisters square off against Billie and Christy. Each side throws its potions. A blast ensues that throws Piper, Phoebe and Paige out of the house through a blown out wall. Christy and Billie are thrown upwards through the bannister. Ultimate Battle Mark I: Hollow Infection Each side has absorbed the Hollow and uses powers taken in by the Hollow. Christy and Billie have Wyatt's powers, while the sisters have the demon's power to throw fireballs. This battle culminates in the complete destruction of the manor. The Hollow is returned to its encasing.
Ultimate Battle Mark I: Hollow Infection Interruptus
Each side has absorbed the Hollow and uses powers taken in by the Hollow. Christy and Billie have Wyatt's powers while the sisters have the demon's power to throw fireballs. Before the manor is destroyed, future Piper, past Patty and present perfect Grams, accompanied by future Leo, cast a power of three spell to return the Hollow to its encasing. The battle ends as future Piper merges with her present body. Billie and Christy vanish. Ultimate Battle Mark II: Death to Dumain/Christy Creamed/Touche TRIAD
Christy uses Coop's ring to love travel to the past. In her company is future Dumain. Both meet present Dumain as he is pleading with the TRIAD for more power, but resisting their desire to unleash the Hollow. Using Billie's power of projection, the Charmed Ones enter the secret chamber. Piper vanquishes both Dumains. Potions are thrown at the spiritual TRIAD and presumably vanquish them. Christy is vanquished when she attempts to send a combustion ball at Billie. Billie redirects this ball and vanquishes her sister. I hope this helps. In the Ultimate Battle Mark II scenario, the Hollow is never unleashed, Baby Wyatt never loses his powers.
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