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Post by vandergraafk on Jun 29, 2007 15:58:49 GMT -5
Whitelightertony worked out an excellent proposed timeline concerning the early years of the Charmed Ones. It came about in response to a query regarding the age of Phoebe when Victor left. Here is whitelightertony's timeline in its entirely. Please feel free to comment on it.
Here's a basic timeline I've constructed, pertaining to Halliwell family events:
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October 28, 1970 – Prue Halliwell is born
December 11, 1970 – Patience Baxter Johnson (Piper's past life, and Penny's mother) dies
June 7, 1972 – Piper Halliwell is born
July 2, 1973 – Patty takes Prue and Piper to Kentwood Park for the first time
August 19, 1973 – after doing some research through old family diaries, Patty creates a page about Barbas in the Book of Shadows
October 4, 1974 – Patty Halliwell is told by her doctor that she can no longer have anymore children
February 15, 1975 – Piper and Leo time-travel from the year 2006 to collect Patty Halliwell to help fix the Charmed Ones’ destiny
March 24, 1975 – Grams and a pregnant Patty are visited by future versions of their three daughters, Prue, Piper, and Phoebe, and discover that their daughters are the Charmed Ones, being hunted by Nicholas in a future reality
March 25, 1975 – Grams and Patty write the “Nicholas Must Die” spell, and agree not to erase their memories of the future Charmed Ones’ time travel visit, as a way of reminding themselves from now on that they will be protecting the Power of Three
June 20, 1975 – Victor walks out on the family, and Grams angrily cuts him out of all the family photographs
July 6, 1975 – Patty and Grams write a Relinquishing Spell to potentially allow the Charmed Ones to protect themselves from evil in the future
September 13, 1975 – an almost five-year-old Prue and three-year-old Piper are visited by warlocks (who came after Grams and Patty) for the first time, but Patty freezes the warlocks and talks her daughters through it by telling her daughters to command the warlocks to go away
October 10, 1975 – Victor’s sister Jane Bennett is treated for manic depression and institutionalized
November 2, 1975 – Phoebe Halliwell is born
November 4, 1975 – Grams and Patty create an elixir to bind Prue’s, Piper’s, and Phoebe’s powers, and write a spell to erase Prue’s and Piper’s memories of being magical witches - - they include a clause in the spell to preserve the cosmic order by erasing their own memories of the Charmed Ones’ identities only on conditional occasions when Destiny calls for it
December 21, 1975 – Patty incribes a Ouija board to her three daughters
February 14, 1976 – Patty and Sam consummate their relationship
March 21, 1976 – Victor begins trying to worm his way back into Patty’s life
April 14, 1976 – Grams privately warns and threatens Victor to stay away from Patty
October 31, 1976 – Sam and Patty conceive Paige
December 24, 1976 – Victor comes home to visit the girls for Christmas, and Grams reluctantly allows him to see his daughters
December 29, 1976 – Penny and Patty cast a spell to hide Patty’s pregnancy from the Elders and the rest of the world, excluding blood relatives
May 6, 1977 – the flashback scene from “We All Scream For Ice Cream,” when Prue is home sick from school and Victor saves her from the Ice Cream Realm
June 14, 1977 – Prue begins taking piano lessons
August 2, 1977 – Paige Matthews is born
February 28, 1978 – Patty Halliwell dies, drowned by the Water Demon at Camp Skylark
June 7, 1978 – on Piper’s sixth birthday she is attacked by a demon, prompting another argument between Penny and Victor, and Victor exits the girls’ lives for the next two decades
October 5, 1978 – Grams begins teaching Piper how to cook
June 13, 1981 – Grams vanquishes the Woogyman
November 3, 1982 – Piper and Leo time-travel from the year 2006, along with a version of Patty from the year 1975, to collect Penny Halliwell to help fix the Charmed Ones’ destiny - - as soon as Piper/Leo/Patty enter this timeline, Penny’s memories of her granddaughters’ magical identities disappear, as per the clause from the spell that she and Patty wrote seven years earlier
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Basically, the answer to your question would be: Phoebe was approximately 18 months old when Victor left the family for the last time, which was depicted in the flashback from "We All Scream For Ice Cream." This was probably the last time the girls heard from him.
Of course, as seen in Piper's flashback from "Sympathy For The Demon," Victor returned one year later, probably in one last-ditch attempt to claim a "normal life" for his daughters. However, by this point, Patty had died, and Grams was even more ferociously protective of her granddaughters, so it's likely that Prue and Phoebe didn't even get to see Victor when he popped in for Piper's birthday (Piper obviously remembers getting to see him momentarily, but Grams put the kibosh on Piper having any extended contact with her father, despite the fact that it was Piper's birthday that day). So for what it's worth, Phoebe would have been a little older than two-and-a-half on that occasion, although it would be a moot point if Prue and Phoebe weren't even allowed to see him.
As vandergraafk suggested, Phoebe would have been slightly older than one in the Christmas home video - - which would have taken place four-and-a-half months prior to Victor's final departure from San Francisco. If the actress playing Little Phoebe in the home movie was actually older than one, it's probably because they didn't feel that casting an actual one-year-old girl for the part would lend itself to a visceral depiction of that moment in time.
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Post by vandergraafk on Oct 19, 2007 13:50:52 GMT -5
Whitelightertony went backwards in time in response to Mr. Foxfire's question regarding the cousins from the 1920s (Pardon My Past). First is Mr. Foxfire's observation, then whitelightertony's tree:
Mr. Foxfire noted:
"Just to quickly touch on the 1920s cousins. Were two of them sisters? Because if each was a cousin that would have required three individual sisters to conceive each one, right? I just want someone to clarify them for me. Because as we know it, they are the only Warren Witches (the Phoebe/Prue ones) that didn't have the usual Warren powers.
In Paige's case (for her witchly powers), would have been the spellcrafting portion of her powers. She should have retained her ability (if she wasn't bound) to perform successful spells.
If she had experimented in them, they were likely from cheap magic books which had the wrong wording. I think "Animal Pragmatism" can vouch for the importance of words. Early Phoebe I think was the embodiment of the essence of spellcrafting."
To which whitelightertony responded:
"I have a rough version of the Warren family tree worked out, and here's where I believe each of the 1920s cousins came from:
Phoebe Bowen (Prue's past life) was born to Gregory Bowen and his wife, Lola; Gregory was the great-grandson of Brianna Wentworth-Warren (whose husband was Christian Bowen; ultimately, Brianna changed her name back to Warren, to honor her family heritage).
Patience Baxter (Piper's past life) was born to Prunella Baxter and her husband, Jonas; Prunella was another great-granddaughter of Brianna's.
Parson Russell (Phoebe's past life) was born to Peony Russell and her husband, Abraham; Peony was yet another great-granddaughter of Brianna's.
Gregory, Prunella, and Peony were siblings, the children of James and Iris Bowen. James was the son of Jeffrey and Cleo Bowen. Jeffrey was Brianna's son."
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Post by vandergraafk on Oct 19, 2007 13:59:45 GMT -5
Vandergraafk used whitelightertony's guide and answered Mr. Foxfire's query in this manner:
"Who knows what is false and what is true? The question remains: did whitelightertony answer Mr. Foxfire's query. I gather that they were either first cousins or second cousins. But none were sisters. Is that correct, whitelightertony?
The reason I pose the question is because your family tree skips two generations between the parents of the "cousins" and the great-grandparents Brianna and Christian Bowen. As a result, I don't believe it is possible to determine whether the 20s cousins are first or second or even third cousins!
But clearly, according to whitelightertony's chart, the 20s girls cannot be related at all by sisterdom! Nor can the girls all be first cousins since that would mean that there parents would have had to have been sisters: a previous incarnation of Charmed Ones that we know didn't exist!"
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Post by Reality Bites on Oct 19, 2007 16:12:23 GMT -5
It could be possible that the 1920s cousins were first cousins. Just because their mothers would of been three sisters, doesn't mean they would have to be a previous unknown incarnation of the Charmed Ones. Their mothers could have been three sisters without the right combination of individual powers. To be the Charmed Ones, each sister must possess one of Melinda's original three powers. If two of the sisters are telekinetic and the third can foresee the future, they would not be able to fulfill the prophecy of the Charmed Ones.
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Post by vandergraafk on Oct 22, 2007 19:48:35 GMT -5
We might not have to resort to such wishful hoping that the three sisters of that generation did not have the right combination of powers. Rather, whitelightertony notes that one of the offspring of Brianna was great-grandson Gregory Bowen. It is he, not his wife, who is related to Brianna.
Whitelightertony wrote:
"Sort of...I believe P. Bowen, P. Baxter, and P. Russell were full cousins of the same generation. Their familial relation to one another was that they were straight cousins - - not first-cousins or second-cousins or third-cousins.
Gregory, Prunella, and Peony were siblings (obviously NOT the Power of Three, since the oldest child, Gregory, was a boy). Each of them sired a daughter with his or her respective spouse.
Gregory Bowen (born 1879) conceived Phoebe Bowen (aka Prue's past life), to whom his wife, Lola, gave birth in 1895.
Prunella Bowen (born 1881) gave birth to Patience Baxter (aka, Piper's past life, and the mother of Penny/Grams) in 1897.
Peony Bowen (born 1884) gave birth to Parson Russell (aka Phoebe's past life) in 1900.
So Phoebe, Patience, and Parson (who ran the 1920s speakeasy) would all be direct cousins to one another, because each one had a parent who were direct siblings.
The three children (Gregory, Prunella, and Peony) of James and Iris Bowen each had a distinct power:
-- Gregory possessed the ability of hypergeneration (the power to restore damaged matter to its original state; however, he kept this power hidden, since in the Warren family it was taboo to believe that boys could possibly be born magical)
(side-note: in 1906, amid the aftermath of the San Francisco earthquake, Gregory's father, James, convinces his magical son to travel through the wreckage of San Francisco using his power of hypergeneration to help people - - James is motivated to do this because, as a non-magical carrier, he has lived his whole life without any powers, and wants to see the men of the Warren family do something meaningful from the magic that they hide from their female relatives...so he convinces his son to begin to carry out this objective)
--- Prunella possessed the ability to implant fake visions in people while invoking empathic sensations in them
--- Peony (a troublemaker, much like her own daughter and Peony's great-great-great-niece would both come to be) possessed the power of precognition (which would also ultimately come to be passed down to her Peony's-great-great-great niece, Phoebe Halliwell)."
Of course, that explanation only raised more eyebrows as now we had to contemplate a male offspring in the Warren family lineage. Mr. Foxfire made note of this when he wrote:
"I also think it's worth mentionning that there's never been a man in the Warren line until Wyatt. Therefore, it couldn't be possible that it was a boy/girl/girl or boy/boy/girl formula for their relation."
Oh boy!
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Post by vandergraafk on Oct 22, 2007 19:54:43 GMT -5
Whitelightertony replied that the family tree, which we barely glimpsed in Pardon My Past and later again when Wyatt is born, was hardly worked out by either Ms. Burge or Mr. Kern. However, as whitelightertony understood it,
"No, on the Warren family tree seen in Season 1, there are clearly boys listed as part of the Warren line, descended directly from Melinda Warren and her offspring.
Now if you're referring to the bull-headed comment made by Grams in "Necromancing the Stone"...I believe that Grams meant that there hasn't been a single male witch born in the family (as far as she knows) since Melinda Warren. This feeds into Penny's prejudice that males cannot be trusted with magic.
It's possible that the boys born to Warren women simply possessed passive powers (or some of them were carriers, such as James Bowen and Scott Bowen) and hid the fact that they possessed magic from their Warren matriarchs. This led Grams, and probably her foremothers, to assume that for some reason boys in their family weren't "destined" to be magical."
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Post by vandergraafk on Oct 22, 2007 19:57:29 GMT -5
Mr. Foxfire was not satisfied with this reading of the Warren lineage. He noted that "I don't think there were men born into the Warren line ever though. It goes against the logic and mythology behind Charmed. The only reason I see there being men on the family tree is out of marriage."
Whitelightertony replied:
"But we've seen males listed on the onscreen family tree directly sired from Melinda Warren's descendants.
And why would it go against the logic and mythology of the Charmedverse?
We've seen other male witches on the show. In my estimation, it was Grams and the other matriarchs of the Warren line who threw logic out the window because they wanted to believe that males in *THEIR* family couldn't be magical."
Mr. Foxfire countered:
"The Family Tree has been proven incorrect before though (I believe there are certain birthdates and stuff that are wrong). But Grams specifically stated that a Warren has never given birth to a boy. The whole point of the Warren line was to pass on women who would eventually give birth to the Charmed Ones.
Although, I suppose what I'm thinking now is that the reason why it was possible for Piper to give birth to boys (other than to keep it as a twist) was because the Charmed prophecy had already come true. Therefore, there wouldn't need to be any further passing on of the three powers OR need for daughters.
Yes we've seen male witches over the course of Charmed but never a Warren witch (until Wyatt and Chris). It's always been a point that the Warren line is strictly female and would probably have diminished the importance of the female power if there had been a man in it."
Unfortunately, this view was not shared by Assassin Witch. She stated:
"Sure, some of the Family Tree could be wrong, but if you follow the tree from the show, it clearly states there is a Gordon Johnson II - Penny's brother. I just pass it as a) inconsistancy and b) as Penny being bitter toward men."
Grams, grams, grams. It's all about Grams, isn't it? Well, not quite as whitelightertony noted:
"Then why would the producers have gone to the trouble of creating a Warren family tree with male descendants (actually, two versions of it - - both including male descendants)?
We only heard two statements on the show hinting that Warren men couldn't be magical.
A.) in one early "Prue era" episode (I forgot if it was a Season 1 or Season 2 episode), Prue herself concludes that if she or her sisters give birth to girls, they'll be witches (implying that, if their children are boys, they won't be magical). This seems to indicate that Prue (and probably Piper and Phoebe) are under the impression that boys who are born into the family can't be magical...yet, Prue's statement itself implies that she's open to the possibility that boys can be born into the Warren family (just not as male witches with magical powers).
B.) then there was the statement made by Grams in "Necromancing the Stone." On its face, it sounds like Grams was saying that there had never been any boys born into the family. However, five episodes earlier, in "Baby's First Demon," the producers once again made a unique Warren family tree (albeit different from the one shown in "Pardon My Past") to display and use on-screen...and the family tree in "Baby's First Demon" visibly showed us that boys had been born into the family.
So how can we take Penny's "no boys born into our family" statement to be literal, when, only five episodes earlier in the same season, the producers authorized the creation of a Warren family tree with boys as descendants by birth of Melinda Warren?
Add to that how improbable it is, in the first place, that, throughout thirteen generations of Warren offspring, NONE of them would be boys.
Which is why I believe my theory is probably the most accurate: that all of the Warren boys either: A.) possessed passive witch powers and hid their magic from the women in their family, or B.) were non-magical carriers, much like Carl and Helen Jenkins each were. This had led Grams to erroneously conclude that boys born into "her" family couldn't possibly be magical, and her statement from "Necromancing the Stone" was Grams essentially saying "no male witches have ever been born into our family" (obviously unaware that this wasn't actually the case) - - thus making her so appalled when Wyatt was born."
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Post by Reality Bites on Oct 23, 2007 3:49:52 GMT -5
Where are these names and powers coming from for these "Warren witches"? Owning Season Two of Charmed on DVD I am certain the three cousins first names are never given in the episode "Pardon My Past". Are they glimpsed on the family tree from Season Five? Also, what are the sources for Gregory, Prunella, and Peony's powers? Or the fact their father was a non-magical carrier? This all seems like over the top fan speculation that can't hold any real merit in a debate regarding the Warren line, unless it's proven to be canon. If someone wants to hold the family tree as canon, any information regarding the individuals listed on the family tree must be considered canon as well.
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Post by vandergraafk on Oct 23, 2007 17:43:56 GMT -5
Whitelightertony is wont to engage in speculation and to consult other non-broadcast sources. Ljones specifically asked him about this in the Charmed Cafe when she inquired about Brianna Warren. Ljones wondered, "I didn't know that Brianna Warren had changed her name back to Warren. In which episode was this confirmed?"
Whitelightertony replied that some of this involved guesswork on his part:
"It wasn't actually confirmed in an episode. Various references online refer to Brianna as either "Brianna Wentworth" or "Brianna Warren" (with her married name being "Brianna Bowen"), so I found a happy medium between the two."
I suspect that other on-line references were used to construct the remaining family tree. Where the powers emanate is anyone's guess. Until whitelightertony comes clean and answers ljones' additional query, i.e., "Is Gregory's "ability" something else you had used to “fill in the blanks"?", we won't know. I am leery about clamping down on speculation by the idle reference to canon. Just because something was shown on TV does not mean it was authoritative, especially if it contradicts something else shown on TV. Moreover, there were things that were shown that are incomplete, i.e., we are required to fill in the blanks in order to make sense of it all. "Canon" just closes debate rather than elevate it to a higher plane.
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Post by Reality Bites on Oct 23, 2007 18:38:30 GMT -5
That is why I don't hold the family tree as canon, personally, although that does not mean I object to there being any male Warrens in the family line. I do believe that Grams was inferring that there simply had not been any male witches born into their family before Wyatt was born.
While I can accept the fact that any male Warren, before Wyatt, was a non-magical carrier I doubt that they possessed any type of magical power. It seems too big of a leap of faith to think every last male in the family line, if they had any type of passive or active powers, would be able to hide it from the matriarchs and other females within the family.
Although why males before Wyatt were not capable of being witches I’m not certain. Certainly, a Warren male could produce three female offspring to give birth to the power of three. The need for their family magic to pass down solely through women seems to be a staple of female empowerment produced throughout the run of the show. Which I can accept. The Warren family line has always fascinated me, and it’s a shame that we could quite possibly never gain a thorough account of the entire family lineage from Charlotte (Warren) to the Halliwells.
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Post by vandergraafk on Oct 24, 2007 10:57:47 GMT -5
Whitelightertony answered questions regarding hypergeneration in the Charmed Cafe. He wrote:
"For Gregory Bowen specifically, I believe it was the family tree in "Pardon My Past" where his name appeared.
As for hypergeneration: I made that up. It's a less conspicuous active power that wouldn't have been too obvious whenever Gregory used it. He could also avoid manifesting it in front of people as an instantaneous reaction to something (the way Piper combusts matter or Paige orbs, when startled), both to prevent exposure and hide his secret from the women in his family.
Hypergeneration itself would be the power to regenerate matter that had been damaged. One limitation of this power could be that it would differ from the whitelighter power of healing because "hypergeneration" possessed by a witch would be limited to the repair of nonorganic matter. Similar to Leo "healing" the neon P3 sign at the end of "Size Matters" (and I believe the only reason he was able to do that was because the P3 sign was an extension of the sisters, who were his charges)."
Though relieved that whitelightertony had accepted responsibility for his speculative thoughts and thanked him appropriately, vandergraafk wondered how this new information compared with what we already knew from the show itself. Specifically, vandergraafk wished to know how the speculation that Gregory Bowen indeed was a male witch squared with what we see at the wiccaning of baby Wyatt.
"At the wiccaning of baby Wyatt, we see only females from the Warren line of witches. Is this because only females were allowed to attend a wiccaning? Or is this because only witches born unto the Warren line were allowed to attend? If the latter, then we can put paid to your speculation regarding Gregory Bowen as a male witch with powers, however you speculate these might be. Male offspring could then only be considered carriers. If the former, then maybe we need an explanation as to why only female witches attend wiccanings
Now, as for the notion that male offspring could be passive carriers only, that might explain why Grams was so disdainful of baby Wyatt during Season 5's Necromancing the Stone. Perhaps she was disappointed that the first born Warren witch of the next generation would be but a boy, a carrier only. Would this have made the next born, if female, less powerful than otherwise?
Imagine the shock Grams must have endured when learning that baby Wyatt was NOT just a carrier, but a very powerful hybrid after all? Certainly, her anti-male disposition had to be altered - and was with respect to the wiccaning of Chris. There's not a hint of anti-male bias against baby Chris or even lament on Grams' part that yet another male witch was born.
Clearly, Grams did not grasp the significance of this baby. Unlike the sorcerer in The Day the Magic Died who did understand its signficance, Grams allowed her anti-male bias to cloud her vision. In fact, it may as well have blocked dissonant information from entering her biased world view. Only a succession of events could alter such a powerful stereotype against males."
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Post by Fourever Charmed on Jun 6, 2009 0:38:18 GMT -5
Hmm. I take issue with a couple of these theories:
Phoebe was in the picture Victor held up to show that he'd been cut out of and she was definitely at least a year (most likely older), so I doubt that this is when the picture chopping happened. (Unless it happened on two or more different occasions.) To me it seems more likely that it happened after Victor left for the "final" time. (Prior to his shortlived appearance for Piper's birthday that she remembered from "Sympathy For The Demon.")
I highly doubt this is true. With the way Victor was acting and kissing Patty in the Christmas video, it seems extremely unlikely to me that he'd only dropped in to see his girls. I think he and Patty were still married, yet he was unaware that Patty was having an affair (and already pregnant with Sam's child).
Actually, Brianna's last name was never confirmed in the episode. It was inferrred by the fans that her last name was Warren, but her entry in the Book of Shadows only refers to her as:
There's more that continues onto the second page, but I'm unable to get a good look at it due to bad/fuzzy camera angles and cut off screencaptions. Anyway, my point was that it never lists her last name, it merely states that she's a "Warren witch," thus descended from Melinda Warren, but nothing more. (And given that she is the Charmed Ones' great-great-great aunt, I highly doubt her last name would still be Warren.)
And on a side note, after reading the BOS entry, I realized it also never specifically states Brianna's power. I tend to wonder if perhaps she had psychokinesis and used it in combination with her telekinesis, which allowed her to direct her power at Gabriel's sword (which she could see - thus TK) and then throw it hundreds of miles away (where she couldn't see it - PK).
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