Post by vandergraafk on Apr 20, 2007 17:16:36 GMT -5
Discuss, debate and analyze the role of the Cleaners with respect to memory erasing in this thread.
In the Charmed Cafe - after perusing the postings of various fans regarding memory loss due to the Cleaners during Season 6 - vandergraafk made the following post:
I don't see how your conclusion follows from your premise. Since no one has time traveled in reality, there's no mechanism for us to discuss the possibilities of time travel? First, I can only say that's a rather defeatist perspective. We can certainly imagine time travel - as the writers in Charmed have. We may borrow our notions from other writers or shows, as I am certain the writers in Charmed did, since none of their concepts is particularly novel. Second, theoretical physicists have written extensively about time travel. Einstein and Hawking are only two of many physicists to add their perspectives to a discussion that principally emanated from science fiction writing. Third, I invite each and every one of you to read The Physics of the Buffyverse by Jennifer Ouellette. The chapters on time - Time Goes Wonky -nd other realities - Alternative Reality Bites - are excellent summaries of what theoretical physics has to say about these issues. And, all of this is anchored to episodes of Buffy and Angel. The Physics of Charmedverse should not be that radically different.
Now, it may very well be that theoretical physics cannot illuminate everything. Indeed, according to Hawking, time travel into the past seems to violate the notion of causality. Worse: a person travelling into the past should not be able to retain any memories of the future since none of those events have occurred. Nor should a traveler from the future be able to change events in the past since that stands the nature of causality on its head.
Yet, Buffy, Angel and Charmed all have time travel that violates these propositions from theoretical physics. That doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong or far-fetched. They may seem improbable, given our present understanding of the universe. But, things that once seemed improbable - anti-matter - were found out to be real, existing entities when scientists dared to question key assumptions and technology became sufficiently developed to allow experimental testing of new hypotheses. Anti-matter particles were observed and their annihilating interactions with matter were recorded.
Please don't misunderstand. I am not saying that time travel will one day be possible. I regard it as a dubious proposition. But I prefer to await the verdict of physics as to what is possible and what is not possible. In the meantime, let me enjoy my science fiction. Time travel may be fantasy, but it does have its charms!
What we need to ask of Charmed (and Buffy and Angel) is how consistently and non-contradictorily the writers apply their concept of time travel. For Charmed, it is clear that travelers to the past retain their memories. It is also clear that travelers to another plane of existence retain memories of their existence on the original plane. When the Cleaners erase everyone's memories of Wyatt in Forget Me ... Not, the Cleaners have created an alternative universe. In this regard, the Cleaners are like the Avatars in that a new reality where participants retain none of their previous memories except the ability to read, write and speak, along with the other motor functions, can be created. Exactly how this selective memory erasure functions is beyond me. But the fact is neither the Avatars nor the Cleaners create an alternative reality tabla rasa.
So, the question becomes: what memories are erased in order to create an alternative reality? As I indicated, clearly motor functions, as well as the aforementioned linguistic functions, are not impacted by memory erasure. Clearly, Phoebe will be able to ride a bike in any alternative reality that the Cleaners or the Avatars can created. And, mortals and magical creatures retain the ability to communicate, though the content of their communication may change as the memories that are erased alter content.
Memory erasing can be either event-specific or more general in nature. In Trial by Jury, Phoebe is forced to use magic in order to persuade her fellow jurors that the accused is really innocent or that there is sufficient doubt about his guilt to warrant a verdict of not guilty. Magic has been exposed, and Leo applies a bit of memory dust to wipe away the memories of all involved. In this episode, a specific event, the conjuring of the deceased friend of the accused, has been erased.
Memory dust, however, is not sophisticated enough to permanently wipe out event-specific memories or limited enough to erase just a specific event. As Leo cautions Phoebe in that same episode, memory dust is used sparingly because those affected could forget other important memories related to appointments. There is a risk involved.
Second, memory dust is not a permanent solution. Yes, it erases the active memory, but a residual copy exists hard-wired to the brain. Darryl constantly reminds Phoebe, Paige and Piper that any event involving the sisters could trigger Inspector Sheridan's memories prior to her sedation by Brody. At all costs, he warns, Sheridan's memories must remain inaccessible. Alas, the never ending attacks from demons eventually bring about a complete recovery of Sheridan's memories. The only events she cannot access are those that are related to her induced coma period.
The Cleaners seemingly have greater abilities to affect memory. When they initially intervene and abscond with Wyatt, the sisters are almost completely in the dark. But, by and by, dissonant voices are heard (the baby cries that Leo hears) and-nonsensical actions occur (Piper does things that mothers normally do) that create incongruencies between perceptions and actions.
Yet, the Cleaners cannot completely erase all memories related to Wyatt in their alternate universe. True, none of the non-magical entities has the ability to penetrate this veil of darkness. But Charmed Ones can. As early as Season 1, Phoebe was able to figure out more and more details with each successive loop in Deja Vu All Over Again. Now, the Charmed Ones and Leo can all sense something is wrong. There's enough cognitive dissonance to suggest that the Charmed Ones cast a spell to shield their memories from magical intervention when going back in time to relive the past reality.
In Crimes and Witch Demeanors, the Cleaners exact a bit of revenge on the Charmed Ones by selectively erasing the reality that they have helped create. Though the rest of society - Internal Affairs, Sheridan, etc. - will remain oblivious to what happened in the alley with Darryl and the demon, Darryl will remember that the Cleaners altered what happened and caused Darryl to land on death row. Darryl will remember the near death experience he must have felt as the poison raced through his veins while strapped to the gurney. To conclude, then, the Cleaners have a more sophisticated ability to erase event-specific memories permanently for an entire class of people (mortals) or selected individuals. The Cleaners are not able to erase memories on a permanent basis for magical beings, residual memories linger and can be brought back to life through some sort of emotional trigger.
The Avatars have a power that surpasses even that of the Cleaners. Their ability to alter memories extends to magical creatures as well. None of the Charmed Ones can recall any of the pre-change memories as these relate to the Avatars. In addition, the memories of mortals and magical beings has been altered in terms of morality. If you will, the hard drive as it relates to moral actions has been erased and reconfigured. Usually, this works well. But even the Avatars were compelled to eliminate individuals whose hard-wiring proved insufficient for the new order.
Because Phoebe's extrasensory abilities - precognition and empathy - are very powerful, the Avatars cannot prevent these highly emotive abilities from examining the very logical foundations of the Avatar moral code. Death could be dealt with in a logical manner, but Phoebe's emotive ability tells her that something is not quite right. Her powers will penetrate the Avatar re-wiring and lead the Charmed Ones out of their clouded moral vision.
From this, two conclusions can be drawn. First, within Charmedverse there is a continuum of memory changing powers. The weakest is the memory dust. The strongest is clearly Avatar power. The Cleaners occupy a middle position in this continuum.
Second, whatever the Cleaners can do, it is clearly event specific. Thus, when the Cleaners erase Chris's memory - and everyone else's memory - of Wyatt in order to undo the exposure of magic caused by Wyatt's conjuring of the fire-spewing dragon, they are clearly erasing only those memories specifically related to Wyatt. No other memories are erased. Thus, there is NO REASON to assume that Chris's memories about the need to save Paige would be erased. The fact that Chris no longer mentions the events pertaining to Oh My Goddess as a reason for time travel DOES NOT constitute a refutation of the hypothesis that Chris traveled for this reason principally and secondarily to save Wyatt. Rather, it is further proof that the writers ignored what had been used in Season 5 when constructing the story arc of Season 6. The two can be reconciled. The writers never attempt to do so.
In the Charmed Cafe - after perusing the postings of various fans regarding memory loss due to the Cleaners during Season 6 - vandergraafk made the following post:
I don't see how your conclusion follows from your premise. Since no one has time traveled in reality, there's no mechanism for us to discuss the possibilities of time travel? First, I can only say that's a rather defeatist perspective. We can certainly imagine time travel - as the writers in Charmed have. We may borrow our notions from other writers or shows, as I am certain the writers in Charmed did, since none of their concepts is particularly novel. Second, theoretical physicists have written extensively about time travel. Einstein and Hawking are only two of many physicists to add their perspectives to a discussion that principally emanated from science fiction writing. Third, I invite each and every one of you to read The Physics of the Buffyverse by Jennifer Ouellette. The chapters on time - Time Goes Wonky -nd other realities - Alternative Reality Bites - are excellent summaries of what theoretical physics has to say about these issues. And, all of this is anchored to episodes of Buffy and Angel. The Physics of Charmedverse should not be that radically different.
Now, it may very well be that theoretical physics cannot illuminate everything. Indeed, according to Hawking, time travel into the past seems to violate the notion of causality. Worse: a person travelling into the past should not be able to retain any memories of the future since none of those events have occurred. Nor should a traveler from the future be able to change events in the past since that stands the nature of causality on its head.
Yet, Buffy, Angel and Charmed all have time travel that violates these propositions from theoretical physics. That doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong or far-fetched. They may seem improbable, given our present understanding of the universe. But, things that once seemed improbable - anti-matter - were found out to be real, existing entities when scientists dared to question key assumptions and technology became sufficiently developed to allow experimental testing of new hypotheses. Anti-matter particles were observed and their annihilating interactions with matter were recorded.
Please don't misunderstand. I am not saying that time travel will one day be possible. I regard it as a dubious proposition. But I prefer to await the verdict of physics as to what is possible and what is not possible. In the meantime, let me enjoy my science fiction. Time travel may be fantasy, but it does have its charms!
What we need to ask of Charmed (and Buffy and Angel) is how consistently and non-contradictorily the writers apply their concept of time travel. For Charmed, it is clear that travelers to the past retain their memories. It is also clear that travelers to another plane of existence retain memories of their existence on the original plane. When the Cleaners erase everyone's memories of Wyatt in Forget Me ... Not, the Cleaners have created an alternative universe. In this regard, the Cleaners are like the Avatars in that a new reality where participants retain none of their previous memories except the ability to read, write and speak, along with the other motor functions, can be created. Exactly how this selective memory erasure functions is beyond me. But the fact is neither the Avatars nor the Cleaners create an alternative reality tabla rasa.
So, the question becomes: what memories are erased in order to create an alternative reality? As I indicated, clearly motor functions, as well as the aforementioned linguistic functions, are not impacted by memory erasure. Clearly, Phoebe will be able to ride a bike in any alternative reality that the Cleaners or the Avatars can created. And, mortals and magical creatures retain the ability to communicate, though the content of their communication may change as the memories that are erased alter content.
Memory erasing can be either event-specific or more general in nature. In Trial by Jury, Phoebe is forced to use magic in order to persuade her fellow jurors that the accused is really innocent or that there is sufficient doubt about his guilt to warrant a verdict of not guilty. Magic has been exposed, and Leo applies a bit of memory dust to wipe away the memories of all involved. In this episode, a specific event, the conjuring of the deceased friend of the accused, has been erased.
Memory dust, however, is not sophisticated enough to permanently wipe out event-specific memories or limited enough to erase just a specific event. As Leo cautions Phoebe in that same episode, memory dust is used sparingly because those affected could forget other important memories related to appointments. There is a risk involved.
Second, memory dust is not a permanent solution. Yes, it erases the active memory, but a residual copy exists hard-wired to the brain. Darryl constantly reminds Phoebe, Paige and Piper that any event involving the sisters could trigger Inspector Sheridan's memories prior to her sedation by Brody. At all costs, he warns, Sheridan's memories must remain inaccessible. Alas, the never ending attacks from demons eventually bring about a complete recovery of Sheridan's memories. The only events she cannot access are those that are related to her induced coma period.
The Cleaners seemingly have greater abilities to affect memory. When they initially intervene and abscond with Wyatt, the sisters are almost completely in the dark. But, by and by, dissonant voices are heard (the baby cries that Leo hears) and-nonsensical actions occur (Piper does things that mothers normally do) that create incongruencies between perceptions and actions.
Yet, the Cleaners cannot completely erase all memories related to Wyatt in their alternate universe. True, none of the non-magical entities has the ability to penetrate this veil of darkness. But Charmed Ones can. As early as Season 1, Phoebe was able to figure out more and more details with each successive loop in Deja Vu All Over Again. Now, the Charmed Ones and Leo can all sense something is wrong. There's enough cognitive dissonance to suggest that the Charmed Ones cast a spell to shield their memories from magical intervention when going back in time to relive the past reality.
In Crimes and Witch Demeanors, the Cleaners exact a bit of revenge on the Charmed Ones by selectively erasing the reality that they have helped create. Though the rest of society - Internal Affairs, Sheridan, etc. - will remain oblivious to what happened in the alley with Darryl and the demon, Darryl will remember that the Cleaners altered what happened and caused Darryl to land on death row. Darryl will remember the near death experience he must have felt as the poison raced through his veins while strapped to the gurney. To conclude, then, the Cleaners have a more sophisticated ability to erase event-specific memories permanently for an entire class of people (mortals) or selected individuals. The Cleaners are not able to erase memories on a permanent basis for magical beings, residual memories linger and can be brought back to life through some sort of emotional trigger.
The Avatars have a power that surpasses even that of the Cleaners. Their ability to alter memories extends to magical creatures as well. None of the Charmed Ones can recall any of the pre-change memories as these relate to the Avatars. In addition, the memories of mortals and magical beings has been altered in terms of morality. If you will, the hard drive as it relates to moral actions has been erased and reconfigured. Usually, this works well. But even the Avatars were compelled to eliminate individuals whose hard-wiring proved insufficient for the new order.
Because Phoebe's extrasensory abilities - precognition and empathy - are very powerful, the Avatars cannot prevent these highly emotive abilities from examining the very logical foundations of the Avatar moral code. Death could be dealt with in a logical manner, but Phoebe's emotive ability tells her that something is not quite right. Her powers will penetrate the Avatar re-wiring and lead the Charmed Ones out of their clouded moral vision.
From this, two conclusions can be drawn. First, within Charmedverse there is a continuum of memory changing powers. The weakest is the memory dust. The strongest is clearly Avatar power. The Cleaners occupy a middle position in this continuum.
Second, whatever the Cleaners can do, it is clearly event specific. Thus, when the Cleaners erase Chris's memory - and everyone else's memory - of Wyatt in order to undo the exposure of magic caused by Wyatt's conjuring of the fire-spewing dragon, they are clearly erasing only those memories specifically related to Wyatt. No other memories are erased. Thus, there is NO REASON to assume that Chris's memories about the need to save Paige would be erased. The fact that Chris no longer mentions the events pertaining to Oh My Goddess as a reason for time travel DOES NOT constitute a refutation of the hypothesis that Chris traveled for this reason principally and secondarily to save Wyatt. Rather, it is further proof that the writers ignored what had been used in Season 5 when constructing the story arc of Season 6. The two can be reconciled. The writers never attempt to do so.