RE-SETTING TIME

[vandergraafk]

In Charmedverse, only Tempus and the Avatars have the ability to re-set time. Since the re-setting of time involves an alteration in the past that will of necessity change events subsequently, it is extremely important to pay attention to potential paradoxes that may arise. In general, the most important of these possible paradoxes involves temporal cause and effect. If an effect is allowed to continue (because those actors exhibiting the consequence remain unaffected by the re-setting of time), then it is possible that the re-setting of time will eliminate the specific cause that gave rise to the subsequent effect. The other important paradox involves memory retention. If an agent is unaffected by the re-setting of time, then what are to become of the memories of events that may now have been undone.

Obviously, Charmedverse is subject to both types of problems. Characters in the astral plane or another plane of existence, as well as the Underworld, are unaffected by changes in a given temporal space. This point was made clear both in All Hell Breaks Loose and Centennial Charmed, two episodes where the re-setting of time plays an important role.

It is my contention that the writers messed up the time re-set in All Hell Breaks Loose. As a result, potential paradoxes are left unaddressed. A fix is required, as I see it. Unfortunately, not all members of the Charmed Cafe who participated in this debate shared my view. Below are some of the comments, as well as my responses.

[vandergraafk]

It always helps to start at the beginning. Unfortunately, the beginning bears no resemblance to what emerged. Yet, the beginning is one that many novice Charmed heads question. Where is the lost episode?

Well, there is no "lost episode" between All Hell Breaks Loose and Charmed Again. There is a brief synopsis of what happened at the beginning of Charmed Again Part 1. Esmeralda provided the transcript:


[Scene: Attic. Piper is in tears as she flips through the Book of Shadows. She cants the Power of Three spell, hoping that Prue would return.]

Piper: Hear now the words of the witches, the secrets we hid in the night. The oldest of Gods are invoked here, the great magic is sought. (A candle flickers. She's surrounded by herb jars, chalices and other ritualistic items.) In this night and in this battle, I call upon the ancient power. (She looks up and closes her eyes.) Bring back my sister. Bring back the Power of Three. (She keeps her eyes closed for a prayerful beat, then she opens them, looks at the candle, but sees nothing. Blindly determined, she starts flipping through pages until she finds another spell, To Call a Lost Witch. She expertly finds and mixes certain ingredients {rosemary, cypress, yarrow root} into a silver bowl as she chants from the book.) Power of the witches' rise. Course unseen across the skies. Come to us, we call you near. Come to us and settle here. (Then, she finds an athame and slices the left finger of her left hand so that blood can symbolically spill directly from her heart and into the bowl.) Blood to blood, I summon thee. Blood to blood, return to me.

(A faint gust of wind flickers the candle, but not much else. She buries her face in her hands in defeat.)

Phoebe: Piper? (Piper looks up, hopeful.)

Piper: Prue? (She looks at the candle. Phoebe enters, wearing her nightclothes and jacket. She has a tear-stained face.)

Phoebe: Sweetie, it 4 o'clock in the morning. What are you doing? (Piper doesn't answer, just stares blankly at the book. Phoebe notices Piper's bleeding and gets a towel.) You're bleeding.

(Piper doesn't notice, doesn't care. Phoebe finds a clean cloth, takes Piper's hand and wraps the wound.)

Piper: I don't understand why magic can't fix this. And why we can't bring Prue back. It's not like we haven't cheated death before. I don't understand why this time isn't any different.

Phoebe: Because Leo can't heal the dead, Piper. You know that.

Piper: There's other magic, magic that we've used before. (She flips through the pages and fights the tears.) Scrying, calling a lost witch, reversing time. (She closes the Book of Shadows. She stands up.) It's like the book just deserted us and deserted Prue, and I don't understand why. (Phoebe takes Piper's other hand, holds them both, shares her pain.)

Phoebe: We lost our sister. How can we ever understand that? (Pause) We've tried every magical way to bring her back… but we can't. She's gone. (Their eyes well up as they face the harsh reality, then they fall into each other's arms. It's a nightmare neither one of them can ever wake up from.) I just - I thank God that I didn't lose you too. (Phoebe gives her a little kiss. She breaks the hug. She sighs.) We have to get some rest. Prue will never forgive us if we look bad at her funeral.

(Piper can't help but smile through the tears at that. She stands, looks down at the Book of Shadows one last time before closing it. Arm-in-arm, they exit, shutting the door behind them. A beat, then a mysterious wind returns our attention to the Book of Shadows. The symbol, the triquetra, on the cover begins to glow. The mysterious wind re-opens the book and magically turns to the pages to the last spell Piper tried to cast, "To Call a Lost Witch...".)

[Scene: South Bay Social Services. A young brunette woman, named Paige Matthews, is seated at her desk and pops in a CD into her computer. She turns her attention to the computer screen.]

Woman: Social services. May I help you?

Paige: Printing! (She notices that a mysterious wind blows out her lit candle. She gets up from her chair and takes a few steps to her right. Paige's back is turned when a newspaper mysteriously appears, landing on the floor next to Paige. She turns and bends over to pick up the newspaper. She looks around.)

Woman: South Bay Social Services. May I help you? (She glances at the paper, noticing the obituary section, informing about Prue Halliwell's Death and where and when the funeral will be held. The obituary reads: PRUE HALLIWELL… "Funeral Services will be held today at Memorial Cemetery, 11:00AM.)

Cowan: Paige, you find that study yet? (Paige's boss, Mr. Cowan, emerges from his office and sees her reading the article. He goes up to her.) Paige, did you hear me? (Paige continues to keep her eye on Prue's obituary and grabs her jacket.)

Paige: Yeah. It's in the printer. I'm sorry, I have to go. (She begins to leave.)

Cowan: What do you mean go? Go where? Paige! Hey, Paige!

Opening Credits

[Scene: Manor. Parlor. It's set up for the post-funeral wake. Phoebe, dressed for the funeral, adjust some flowers on the table. She walks into the living room, where Victor, dressed in a dark suit, is sitting on the chair, staring vacantly at the floor bearing the kind of grief only a parent who's lost a child knows. She gives her Dad a small kiss.]

Phoebe: Can I get you anything? (She touches him tenderly on the shoulder. He looks up at her.)

Victor: Oh, no thanks sweetie.

(Phoebe waters a plant and fiddles with a few plants. Phoebe looks up to find Leo entering the parlor with Cole. Both men are dressed in suits.)

Leo: Look who's back.

Phoebe: Cole! (She runs to him and embraces him in her arms and then releases him.) I was afraid you weren't going to make it to the funeral.

Cole: Well, I - I can't make it… or, shouldn't anyway. The Source has got every demonic bounty hunter out there looking for me.

Phoebe: Yeah. So what else is new?

Cole: This is different. Saving you makes it a different, makes me a traitor - and he not going to stop until he finds me and I don't want that happening at Prue's funeral.

Phoebe: So, we'll protect you.

Cole: You can't protect me.

Phoebe: Why not? We're still witches, aren't we?

Cole: Yeah, but you're not the Charmed Ones anymore.

(Phoebe finds herself at the partially repaired, unpainted wall where Prue died. Leo steps in.)

Leo: He's right, Phoebe. Without the Power of Three… (Phoebe raises her hand.)

Phoebe: I don't understand. Isn't it harder to track a demon in a cemetery, Cole? You have to go. I need you there.

(Cole nods. Victor escorts Darryl in through the front door.)

Darryl: Hey, how are you holdin' up?

Phoebe: Okay. (She and Darryl hug and slowly step away from each other.) It's sweet of you to stop by.

Darryl: Had to. Besides, I thought you should know - they're assigning Prue's case to another inspector.

Leo: What case?

Darryl: What case? Are you kidding? Prue and a prominent doctor were killed here, Leo. Made a lot of press. People want answers. Important people.

Cole: So, what's this guy gonna find? That it was a demonic hitman? Gimme a break.

Darryl: He might. Look, you don't know him like I do. He'll keep looking until he finds something, believe me. Cole: I'm not worried.

Leo: Well, I am. I saw what happened when they were exposed as witches. Time may have reversed itself, but it still cost Prue her life.

Victor: Would you people mind? For God's sake, we're burying my daughter today. Can't this wait?

(Phoebe moves over to hug her father, who's struggling to hold it all together.)

[Scene: Piper and Leo's bedroom. Piper's partially dressed, sitting in front of the mirror, lost in her thoughts, absentmindedly brushing her hair. A beat later, Leo eases open the door and enters.]

Leo: Piper? (She doesn't react, just keeps brushing. Leo approaches her.) Honey, we have to go.

Piper: I don't want to go.

Leo: Why not? (Leo kneels down beside her.)

Piper: Because if I go, that'll mean that Prue's really not coming back, and I don't think I can handle that.

Leo: We can handle it together. (Piper shakes her head.)

Piper: She's been there my whole life. I've always had a big sister. And I don't know how to live without one?

Leo: Piper… (He goes to touch her, but she pulls away.)

Piper: Why didn't you save her?

Leo: I tried.

Piper: But you didn't. Why didn't they let you save her, too?

Leo: The Elders? They couldn't. They don't have that kind of power.

Piper: Then what the hell good are they? (She gets up, walks away from him, and finds a Kleenex. Leo follows.)

Leo: It's okay to be angry…

Piper: I'm not angry. I am pissed off! Don't you understand? You healed the wrong sister! You saved me because I'm your d**n wife, and you should've saved her because she was the best! Because she… you should… (She loses it again, overcome. Leo moves up behind her and this time, she lets him hold her.) Why do they put us through so much for it to end this way?

[Scene: Underworld. A darkly cloaked figure appears in front of a shadowy figure known as the Oracle.]

Oracle: May I be seen?

The Source: Have you found Belthazor?

Oracle: No, something else... (He considers that for a beat, then turns and waves his clawed hand at The Oracle. A creepy but sexy young woman, materializes from the depths, stroking her ever-present crystal ball.) Something more important, perhaps.

The Source: Nothing is more important.

Oracle: Not even The Charmed Ones?

The Source: The Charmed Ones are dead.

Oracle: Not all of them.

The Source: One gone ends the threat. Of course, if you had foreseen that a white-lighter was going to help Belthazor save his witch, they'd all be gone. Be grateful I don't turn you into a snake.

Oracle: Yes, but then how would you see into the future without me?

The Source: Without the Charmed Ones to worry about anymore, I may not need to.

Oracle: Mmm. Well, in that case, you'd better keep me around a little while longer. (The Source turns back to the Oracle as she looks into her crystal ball, sees whips of smoke forming inside.)

The Source: What do you see?

Oracle: I see - a witch's call on the spirit winds. I see... another.

So far, so good!


Of course, we Charmedheads cannot leave well enough alone. We always speculate. Whitelightertony presented a reasonable description of what might have transpired during the "lost" episode, a description with which Maracev roughly concurred.

Not only do they not show her death (in fact, it would apear that both Prue AND Piper die in the end), it does not explain how Pheboe and Cole escape from the underworld!



"They really leave it up to the viewer to conclude how it happened.

What I believe probably happened is that Leo orbed down to the Underworld after he saw Piper dead in the hospital; he told Phoebe and Cole that Piper was dead, and Prue had gone mad with rage.

Phoebe and Cole agreed to accept The Source's offer (Phoebe would remain in the Underworld permanently, and Cole would return to work for The Source).

But Leo found a moment to take them aside and say to Phoebe and Cole: "Guys, we can't trust The Source. He'll kill you both, the first chance he gets. Once Tempus resets time, you two need to follow me back up to Earth."

Once Cole overhears The Source say "It is done" (when Tempus resets time), Leo grabs Phoebe's hand and orbs her back up to Earth. Cole shimmers after them, following behind.

Leo and Phoebe orb into the manor, and Cole shimmers in right behind them. Since he was unable to sense Prue and Piper in danger from Shax's attack, Leo is shocked to find Prue and Piper both lying on the manor floor, blood dripping from their bodies.

Phoebe cringes in horror, burying her face into Cole's arms. Leo kneels down and places one hand on Prue and the other hand on Piper, and tries to heal them both simultaneously. However, Prue is already dead, so Leo is unable to revive her. Piper is approaching death, so Leo is still able to heal her.

Piper awakens to find Phoebe and Cole back from the Underworld - - but her big sister dead.

And, since this version of Piper possesses no memories of the magical exposure from AHBL (or the events leading up to it), she is significantly shocked and all the more confused by Prue's death - - making the reality of Prue's death so senseless to Piper."

[vandergraafk]

Well, of course, that wasn't good enough for me. I made a small technical objection, one that I hadn't yet solved at the time of the posting. My speculation was probably not fully fleshed out, as will become apparent later:

"Well, technically, there is a major problem with resetting time in this fashion. If Leo and Phoebe remain in the Underworld, then they will be unaffected by the resetting of time, a point that Cole makes clear. However, Leo and Phoebe were participants in the events that are being reset. Thus, they should be present for the resetting. Indeed, Piper and Prue both assume that Phoebe is upstairs getting the power of three spell for the Shax vanquish since time was reset to that point. Second, if Leo and Phoebe are not returned, then they will remember all that had transpired before the reset of time occurred. In Charmed Again, we have no evidence that this was indeed the case.

What I imagine happened is that Leo and Phoebe were sent back to the surface. Time was reset. Then, just as the Seer yanked Cole to the Underworld in Charmed and Dangerous, the Source had Leo and Phoebe pulled down. However, the Source cannot detain magical creatures for even extended short periods. Time would have been of the essence and obviously, he hoped that his henchmen could dispose of Phoebe and perhaps Cole too in the short window of opportunity his ruse presented. Maybe a darklighter could have taken care of Leo.

The point is: Leo would have recognized the Source's ruse and orbed Phoebe to safety were they together. As Cole would not have trusted the Source either, he would have shimmered to safety shortly after the reset and taken Phoebe if she were near him. Neither Phoebe nor Leo would have known why they had been yanked to the Underworld, as their return to the world would have wiped their memories clean too.

Once returned to safety, Leo would have to then sense that Piper and Prue were in trouble. Again, it bears repeating that he would not have known this in advance. Alas, the wounds to Piper and Prue were severe. The brief detention of Leo and Phoebe in the Underworld was enough to allow nature to work its course and result in the loss of Prue's life. Piper was less severely wounded and Leo arrived just in time to save her."

I should have known that All Hell Would Break Loose. Here's maracev with the first of several critics' objections:

"In Charmed Again, we have no evidence that this was indeed the case.

I think it's pretty clear that they do remember what happened. Cole even mentions to Leo how he should be the one most interested in preventing exposure again, referencing Piper's death in the other timeline."

Then whitelightertony opined:

However, Leo and Phoebe were participants in the events that are being reset. Thus, they should be present for the resetting. Indeed, Piper and Prue both assume that Phoebe is upstairs getting the power of three spell for the Shax vanquish since time was reset to that point.



"I'd assume what happened was sort of similar to what happened in "Forever Charmed" - - Past Leo and Past Phoebe vanished from the reset past, and merged with their present-day selves down in the Underworld.


Quote:Second, if Leo and Phoebe are not returned, then they will remember all that had transpired before the reset of time occurred. In Charmed Again, we have no evidence that this was indeed the case.



Aside from what MarAcev pointed out, I think Leo and Phoebe do remember the events prior to the resetting of time - - except that Phoebe was down in the Underworld for a bulk of AHBL, so she didn't witness much of "all hell breaking loose" firsthand back up on Earth. Leo obviously witnessed and remembers it, and it was Piper's death that had the greatest effect on him personally.

Also, this would explain why Leo and Phoebe were much calmer than poor Piper, in the aftermath of Prue's death. Phoebe and Leo both had some memories of the chain of events that led to Prue's death. But Piper didn't remember anything from the alternate timeline of AHBL, making Prue's death absolutely senseless and bewildering to her. "

Boy, was I wrong to assume that Leo had been involved much at all in what happened in San Francisco. He didn't orb in until all hell had broken loose as the anxious crowd gathers about the manor and nutty Alice tries to join the Halliwell coven. I gladly conceded this point, as I wrote:

"Interesting hypothesis. I'll concede the point with respect to Leo. He's dead after all. I have no idea how memory works for whitelighters. There still is no evidence that Phoebe has any idea. You're going way out on a limb to infer that Phoebe's calmer reaction suggests knowledge retention prior to time being reset. "

Whitelightertony still took issue with Phoebe's apparent lack of memory. Quoting me first, he replied:

There still is no evidence that Phoebe has any idea. You're going way out on a limb to infer that Phoebe's calmer reaction suggests knowledge retention prior to time being reset.



"Why would Phoebe's limited memories of the AHBL timeline be erased?...she was in the Underworld when time was reset."

My feeble response suggested merely that I hadn't yet worked out all of the issues:

"You obviously missed my point. She cannot have remained in the Underworld during the reset of time. Her memories must equally be erased. Placing her (and Leo) back in the real world (briefly) allows her memory to be erased. Summoning her back to the Underworld for detention allows Shax to wreak his destruction on the Charmed Two and Griffiths. "

[vandergraafk]

One point missed, another now became fodder for discussion. Assassin Witch noted:

"I've read your post, but that doesn't fully make sense. How in the world (or Underworld), could they have summoned a Charmed One to them? That doesn't make any sense.

The problem comes in later seasons when time travel gets involved and they talk about catching up with themselves........."

My hasty replied begged for time to re-consider, even though I was fairly certain I knew what I was talking about, at least with respect to summonings:

"Well, I am thinking of Charmed and Dangerous when the Seer summoned Cole (mortal) to the Underworld. He was detained there until he was sent back by the Seer after agreeing to her terms. Now, witches can be summoned as well. Likewise, so can demons. Think of the Zotar who is summoned by the Charmed Ones (by accident) in Sleuthing with the Enemy. The difference is: demons or supernatural witches can be held as Cole was. But, detaining them long enough can be quite effective.

For example, Prue and Piper both assume that Phoebe was in the attic getting the Shax vanquish spell after time was re-set. It is my contention for a time re-set to function properly anyone who was present at the time when time is reset to must be in the world that is being reset. Otherwise, a paradox results.

It seems rather obvious to me that the demonic side understand how the time resetting works. Tempus has the power and the Source can access it. Good doesn't have any comparable power apart from what the Cleaners can do on behalf of the Tribunal. Thus, when Phoebe and Leo agree to re-set time under the conditions the Source has set, they agree.

I have to examine this bit of All Hell Breaks Loose again to see exactly what transpires next. As I indicated, I suspect that there is a technical problem here that the writers glossed over. Some of the questions that have been asked above are the result of this technical problem. So, let me hold off any further discussion until I have had a chance to review the specifics here."

[vandergraafk]

Whitelightertony wished to pursue the question of where Phoebe was during the re-setting of time once again. Quoting me, whitelightertony notes, "she cannot have remained in the Underworld during the reset of time." He then writes:

"As far as we know, Phoebe was still in the Underworld throughout the end of "All Hell Breaks Loose," including through the point when Tempus reset time.

Since Phoebe never went above ground, she (and Leo and Cole) would not have had any memories of the AHBL timeline erased."

My curt reply suggested that I had begun to work out the issues:

"Yes, and therein hangs the problem. Hence, she must have been returned temporarily to the world in order for her memory to be erased. "

Whitelightertony, however, imagines he has the tiger by the tail and writes - after quoting me:

Hence, she must have been returned temporarily to the world in order for her memory to be erased.

"What evidence is there that Phoebe does or doesn't remember the events of "All Hell Breaks Loose"? "

Ljones agreed with whitelightertony and added after quoting me and whitelightertony:

Hence, she must have been returned temporarily to the world in order for her memory to be erased.

What evidence is there that Phoebe does or doesn't remember the events of "All Hell Breaks Loose"?

"I have to agree. Where has it been shown in the series on what Phoebe remembered regarding the events of "All Hell Breaks Loose"?"


Quote:You obviously missed my point. She cannot have remained in the Underworld during the reset of time. Her memories must equally be erased. Placing her (and Leo) back in the real world (briefly) allows her memory to be erased.


"But Phoebe had been in the Source's Realm when Tempus had reset time. In fact, Leo had to get both her and Cole out of there."

Responding to a query and actually arriving at the precise phrasing are two different matters. This is obviously the problem with my "testy" response:

"Well, to assert as you do that both are in the Underworld when time is reset is illogical. I know that's what is asserted. It makes no sense since there is no evidence that Phoebe has any memories of All Hell Breaks Loose at all. Second, if time is reset and Phoebe is not present then none of her actions nor memories can be undone. (I suppose this explains why we never ever hear of Cole's problem from Raymer again. Apparently, Phoebe's potion is allowed to do its wonders even while Tempus resets time - with or without the Source's help. Why on Earth the Source would allow is beyond me?!?)

My proposed solution solves one problem: Phoebe's lack of memory. But, it does not explain how Phoebe is able to free Cole from Raynor's doings. She doesn't go to Cole with the purpose of freeing him until after Shax has attacked the manor. All of this is undone by the time reset. "

[vandergraafk]

Now, it gets worse as whitelightertony tries to figure out what I am saying:

"Okay, vandergraafk, I'm sort of confused - -

Are you saying that, when Tempus reset time, both Phoebe and Cole were transported out of the Underworld and back up to Earth, with their memories of the timeline erased?

If that was the case, did The Source's memories get erased as well? Or the Elders', for that matter?"

"Why? Why couldn't Phoebe have remained in the Source's Realm during the reset of time? Since she was never on Earth during the reset, she could not have been affected by the reset.
Finally, I begin to reply more precisely:

"No, Cole does not need to be transported back to the material world. He spent the entire length of time in the Underworld. Whatever transpires there is unaffected by the rewinding of time by Tempus/the Source!

Since Phoebe was there, she must go back to have that part of her memory erased from the activities she participated in, namely, the solo reading of the power of three spell to vanquish Shax and the plea with Prue and Piper for release time in order to free Cole from Raynor's curse/spell.

To fix this correctly, Phoebe must already have the potion on her when she begs Prue and Piper for release time. She was just waiting for the opportunity to use it. If so, then once she is pulled back to the Underworld, she can use it to free Cole.

Since I know nothing of whitelighter memories nor the whereabouts of Leo during the time frame that will be re-written (he may have been on another plane of existence, for all we know), he probably will remain in the Underworld to make sure the Source keeps his deal or better orb to another plane from which he can see to it that Piper is indeed revived. Frankly, though, if Leo is somewhere in the heavens, then it becomes difficult to explain why he couldn't save both Prue and Piper after time has been reset. We know they nearly died after the first attack. Any delay probably cost Prue her life since she appears to have been badly wounded. Piper's injuries were perhaps less critical. "

Ljones picked up the thread and added her comments following quotations from me:

My proposed solution solves one problem: Phoebe's lack of memory. But, it does not explain how Phoebe is able to free Cole from Raynor's doings. She doesn't go to Cole with the purpose of freeing him until after Shax has attacked the manor. All of this is undone by the time reset.


Phoebe was in the Source's Realm when she had freed Cole from Raynor's spell, using the potion. I really don't see how she could have been affected by the reset of time, when she wasn't on Earth when it happened.

That is why she wasn't around when Shax attacked the manor for the second time, causing Prue's death.

Quote:She cannot have remained in the Underworld during the reset of time. Her memories must equally be erased. Placing her (and Leo) back in the real world (briefly) allows her memory to be erased.

Why? Why couldn't Phoebe have remained in the Source's Realm during the reset of time? Since she was never on Earth during the reset, she could not have been affected by the reset. "

[vandergraafk]

Here's my first summary comment that reflected a more mature approach to the question at hand.

"Time is reset prior to the time that Phoebe pleads with Prue and Piper to be released so that she can take her potion to free Cole from Raynor's curse. If she is not returned, then she will retain memories of this, memories that Piper and Prue (okay, she's dead, but as Paige moaned in Still Charmed and Kicking, you're (Grams) dead and you have a more interesting life than me (I paraphrased this since I don't have this one written down). This creates potential problems down the line, problems that can be resolved in advance if Phoebe is returned, albeit briefly, so that her memories can be erased.

Of course, she freed Cole in the Underworld. But, the potion came from the real world, a potion she must have with her if she is to free Cole. Now, if you argue that since Cole will remain in the Underworld, he will be unaffected and remain Raynor free since Phoebe has already given him the potion or - rather - cracked open a vial onto his back. Yet, if the events in the real world are undone and Phoebe does not have this potion with her, then there is a real paradox. An effect has been created without any apparent cause. THAT is a real problem!"

Needless to say, this did not sit well with certain critics either!

After quoting me, Ljones offered this terse comment:

Time is reset prior to the time that Phoebe pleads with Prue and Piper to be released so that she can take her potion to free Cole from Raynor's curse.

"It doesn't matter, Vaandergraftk. It doesn't matter that time was reset to the moment before Phoebe had left to find Cole. Don't you understand? Phoebe WAS NOT ON EARTH. Tempus' time reset only affected those who were on Earth. Because Phoebe was in the Source's Realm at the time, she was unaffected by the reset."

And maracev added:

"They even said so. When Phoebe asked Cole, he point blank told her that the shift would not affect them. "

whitelightertony at least tried to understand the argument:

Uh, twice now you've missed the point. Time is reset prior to the time that Phoebe pleads with Prue and Piper to be released so that she can take her potion to free Cole from Raynor's curse. If she is not returned, then she will retain memories of this, memories that Piper and Prue (okay, she's dead, but as Paige moaned in Still Charmed and Kicking, you're (Grams) dead and you have a more interesting life than me (I paraphrased this since I don't have this one written down). This creates potential problems down the line, problems that can be resolved in advance if Phoebe is returned, albeit briefly, so that her memories can be erased.

"Of course, she freed Cole in the Underworld. But, the potion came from the real world, a potion she must have with her if she is to free Cole. Now, if you argue that since Cole will remain in the Underworld, he will be unaffected and remain Raymer free since Phoebe has already given him the potion or - rather - cracked open a vial onto his back. Yet, if the events in the real world are undone and Phoebe does not have this potion with her, then there is a real paradox. An effect has been created without any apparent cause. THAT is a real problem!

Wouldn't this create a paradox? If Phoebe's journey down to the Underworld was erased due to time being reset by Tempus, then how could the deal with Tempus have even been struck in the first place? (since Phoebe and Leo wouldn't have been there to help Cole broker it)

And if Phoebe was reinserted back into the timeline, then why didn't she appear at the top of the stairs when Shax attacked?

I'm still confused as to your reasoning, VG. Maybe you could break it down a little more specifically: according to your theory, when Tempus resets time, what physically happens to present-day Phoebe's body? And how do you account for the fact that Phoebe fails to appear at the top of the stairs when Shax attacks in the reset timeline? "

[vandergraafk]

Finally, I arrived at the precise point in my line of reasoning:

"Whitelightertony, you are least thinking about this seriously. To even consider the use of the word paradox hints on the problem. I really don't care what was said in the episode. Maracev's comment simply confirms that the writers got it wrong. However, there is no paradox, as you suggest, created if time is re-set. Prue dies upon Shax's first attack. Dr. Griffiths dies. No magic has been exposed! Thus, there will no need for a second re-setting of time. But that's not the paradox which I am writing about.

Perhaps you are confusing a time loop with a time re-set. If this were a loop, then, yes, a bargain would constantly have to be set. But, the death of Prue ensures that time has taken a different path, a path that will not be reset by a weakened Tempus, a gloating Source or powerless Elders. The Angels of Destiny will not allow any interference because that was the way it was supposed to have ended all along: with Prue's death.

Paradoxes might exist if a time re-setting is done imperfectly. As Stephen Hawking and others have noted, one cluster of problems with time travel can be found in the time paradoxes that potentially emerge. There are two major types of paradoxes that can occur. The first violates our very notion of temporal causality. Consequences happen because of events that preceded these consequences. The second results from memories that are left intact when there truly cannot be a foundation for such memories., i.e., the events will never have happened.

Now, in Charmed's All Hell Breaks Loose, Cole has been freed from Raynor's spell by an action that Phoebe took. She broke a vial across his back when she first embraced him in the Underworld. Cole is freed from Raynor's spell. In this sequence, there clearly is a temporal cause and effect: a prior action caused a subsequent event. If Phoebe is kept in the Underworld, either we must assume that she always had the potion on her person and needed only the permission of her sisters to take time off to visit the Underworld or she got this when she was in the attic getting the Shax vanquishing spell. If we assume the former, then there seems to be no necessary paradox. However, a paradox will still occur because Phoebe will assume that the action has occurred since she and Cole will be unaffected in the Underworld. But, re-setting time wipes out that point in time when Phoebe left to unleash her potion. Ergo: the paradox persists! Phoebe and Cole will know that sometime happened and why it happened, but in reality it can never have happened because time was reset! That's a paradox! A result happens (the freeing of Cole) without the antecedent events ever unfolding!

If we assume the latter, then Phoebe must be returned to the real world (so that her memories can be erased). She will get the vanquishing spell and take along the potion. But, before she gets to the top of the stairs, the Source yanks her down into the Underworld where she is reunited with an imprisoned Cole. But, the Source does not know that Cole has been freed once already from Raynor's spell. Nor does he know that Phoebe has with her the potion. Bringing them together allows Phoebe to free Cole so that he and she might effect their escape from the clutches of the Source, an event that does occur, but is never explained. (I guess we need the Lost Episode for help here!) Phoebe will have every intention to free Cole because she knows why she has the vial with her. She must and will use it. And since the Source is clueless, if he brings Cole and Phoebe together - a logical choice - then he will create the conditions which will allow Phoebe to set Cole free so that both might effect an escape from the Underworld.

Now, I assume that some of you are suggesting: hey wait, if Cole stays in the Underworld, isn't he already free of Raynor's spell since he will remain unaffected by the re-setting of time. Yes, you are absolutely correct. Phoebe's actions, however necessary with respect to temporal causality, will have no real effect since the effect (free Cole from Raynor's spell) was produced prior to time's reset. Still, her action - after time is reset - does serve to eliminate any potential disjuncture in temporal causality. It allows Phoebe to explain to herself why Cole is free of Raymer's spell.

Cole could tell her that it wasn't necessary, but then he would have to explain that time was re-set .... Who wants to go there, especially when Phoebe will learn from Cole that one of her sisters died AFTER time was re-set to save a sister who had died BEFORE time was reset. Wouldn't this make Phoebe wish to re-set time once again? Cole has a very difficult choice to make. Now, it should be obvious why Phoebe's actions, however unnecessary in a physical sense, have a very, very important temporal purpose. Her action, however trivial, is very, very important and must still occur!

Obviously, I prefer the second scenario since that eliminates any potential memory paradox and it eliminates the Cole becomes free paradox. An event will still happen (Cole is freed from Raynor's spell and Phoebe is the agent who causes this to occur). Remember her intention to free Cole antedates the attack by Shax. Time is only re-set to the first Shax attack! "

[vandergraafk]

At this point, it is probably advisable to turn to the episode itself for guidance. Carefully considering the opening season up until the point of Shax's first attack, we observe that all three Charmed Ones escort Dr. Griffiths into the foyer of the manor. On the way in, Piper notes that Phoebe's premonition was incomplete at best. The sisters knew who was at risk, but not why.

Phoebe peels off from the sisters to get the Shax vanquishing spell from the attic. While Phoebe is in the attic, Prue senses something very dangerous. At that moment, Shax whirls inside. Prue calls out to Phoebe. Phoebe hurries down the stairs, but not until Shax has flung both Prue and Piper throught the wall into the conservatory. She reads the vanquishing spell from the top of the landing and Shax disappears. Panicked, Phoebe pleads for Leo to come. He orbs in and heals both Prue and Piper, each very near death. Dr. Griffiths meanwhile is dumbstruck by the whole turn of events.

When time is re-set, it is reset to the moment when Piper and Prue are still with Dr. Griffiths awaiting the return of Phoebe. As they wait, Prue explains that Dr. Griffiths is at risk because he has either healed someone whom the Underworld do not wish to heal or he is about to heal someone. In either case, Dr. Griffiths poses a risk to the demonic underworld and is in need of protection by the Charmed Ones.

Alas, the re-setting of time does not give us Phoebe at the top of the landing. Prue calls out in vain. There is no answer from a non-existent Phoebe. Shax whirls in, flings both Prue and Piper through the wall, answers Dr. Griffiths's query (Who are you? The END) and kills Dr. Griffith by flinging him outside the house.

So, what memories of Phoebe must be erased? Any and all of those that pertain to the time when she appeared on the landing, read the Shax vanquishing spell, called out to Leo, speculated that Shax hadn't really been vanquished, explained to Dr. Griffiths that he cannot tell a soul about what had just transpired, and begged help from her sisters in sending her to the underworld for a short while in order to free Cole from Raynor's spell/curse.

What needs to be explained? First, we know that Phoebe did not return to the attic to obtain the vial containing the potion to free Cole. She had it with her when she handed her sisters the spell to send her to the underworld. Thus, she must have had this on her when she left the attic. What needs to be explained is how Phoebe got into the underworld if time is reset to a point when she is still clearly in the real world (in the attic). Second, since Cole will be freed from Raynor's spell, there needs to be a cause. If Phoebe is not returned to the attic, there will be no cause. The effect will persist, as Cole is not undergoing any change.