CHARMED TO LET YOU TRAVEL IN TIME!

[vandergraafk]

Not infrequently, the production team used time travel throughout the seasons of Charmed. In Season 1, the sisters were sent back by a spell to the 1970s in That 70's Episode. In Season 2, the sisters went forward in time in Morality Bites in order to learn the consequences of using magic for personal gain. Season 3 saw the sisters get sent back by the Elders to stave off a demonic threat to the Warren line of witches in that season's All Halliwell's Eve. In Season 4, it was Paige's turned to be introduced to time travel as she not only went back to her own past in A Paige from the Past, but she experiences a previous life in A Knight to Remember. In Season 5, we witness Cole's attempt to undo history in Centennial Charmed, an episode that saw him exit Charmed for the next 49 episodes. At the end of Season 5, Chris comes from the future to save Paige and the Elders from death and destruction at the hands of the Titans. In Season 6, we see the future that Chris came from, as Bianca, his fiancee is sent back in time to put an end to Chris's attempt to change the future. Season 6 concludes with an attempt by the Chris to go back to his fuure, only to discover that Gideon has sent Chris and Leo to an alternate world where bad is good and vice versa. Season 7 has Lady Godiva being conjured from the past. When something goes amiss, the sisters discover that their world has changed to. Season 7 also features future (good) Wyatt in Imaginary Fiends. Time travel was not finished, as Season 8 brought us love travel and the power of projection in several episodes, namely the series finale Forever Charmed and Twelve Angy Zen. And, of course, no list would be complete if it overlooked The Three Faces of Phoebe in Season 4, as well as Season 5's A Witch in Time. Whex! That's a lot of travel through time.

But, we're not done. I should mention two other episodes where a sort of time travel was involved: Pardon My Past where Phoebe uses a spell to go back to a previous life and Show Ghouls where Drake and Phoebe travel back to the turn of the 19th century to find out why trapped souls have not moved on. None of the material used in these shows seems relevant to me in terms of elucidating our understanding of time travel. I won't even discuss love travel in Season 8 when Coop took Phoebe back in time to revisit her past loves. Nor will I discuss whatever it was in Cat House that caused Phoebe and Paige to hop, skip and jump across Charmed's past. Holy CLIP SHOWS!

Inevitably, with so much time travel, questions arise about similarities and differences in the specifics of time travel. In addition, we could and should ask whether there is any consistency to time travel as it is used in Charmed. What follows is a discussion that first arose in the Charmed Cafe in response to my persistent harping about the confusion surrounding Chris (see more of this discussion in Die Chris Die, as well as The Mechanics of Time Travel). We start with some questions posed by whitelightertonyafter reprising vandergraafk's thesis:

The major problem here seems to be that none of you articulates your vision of time travel. I have, and that's why I'm relatively sure that he is caught in a time loop: albeit a time loop that is interrupted with his death.

To repeat: if one allows for time travel - both forward and backward - then there must be a multiplicity of pasts, presents and futures. Each of these co-exists simultaneously. That is the QUANTUM PARADOX. The existence of any timeline is simply a probability density function outcome. If one talks about a main timeline, then one is talking about the most probable timeline. For Charmed, the most probable timeline is the one that exists from the perspective of the Charmed Ones themselves. All other timelines are subordinate to this main timeline. Chris, as a member of the Warren line of witches, is an integral part of this main timeline.

A time loop, of necessity, results from time travel. There are at least four instances of time travel in Charmed that are sufficiently developed as to allow us to gain insight into the mechanics as used in Charmedverse. In All Halliwell's Eve, the sisters are sent back in time to save the Warren line of witches from demonic interference. By virtue of the fact that the witches are sent home after completion of their mission the sisters are not condemned to get stuck in the past. If the main timeline past is revisited, we will always see the sisters sent back in time. That's the time loop. They have become midwives to their own line of witches.

When I speak of a time loop, perhaps it would be helpful to have a visual image in mind. Think of a roller coast with a loop-de-loop. At some point, the coaster rises and loops back over its track and descends again on a parallel track. Now, there's no parallel track here. What we have is a junction, as the descending loop merges with the track from before. If there is no exit from the main track - I use exit rather loosely, then you will be condemned to repeat the loop over and over. That's what happens to Chris. Future Chris will die, while baby Chris will be born again and again to resume the loop over and over.

When the Charmed Ones in All Halliwell's Eve or Wyatt and Chris in Forever Charmed engage in time travel, they too make the loop. However, after their mission is accomplished, they find the bypass track that allows them to avoid the loop (the Charmed Ones) and to skip ahead further down the track as future Wyatt and Chris are able to do as well. Were they not able to do this, then each traveler to the past would have to live out their future lives in the past. So, the Charmed Ones might have died by 1685 or future Wyatt and Chris would have lived simultaneously with their younger versions.

Chris, as I noted, is unable to do this. He dies as a result of Gideon's potion. He will always die unless Paige or Phoebe can manage to send him past the loop somewhere further down the track, presumably to a point close to when his loop began in order that his absence will not be felt by any loved ones.

Looking at their situations from further on down the track, we can recognize where the loop was and notice that both the Charmed Ones, as well as future Wyatt and Chris, have moved on. Season 6 Chris, though, is condemned to die and be reborn and forever make the loop, unless he can do as future Wyatt and Chris do, namely, to escape onto a bypass track.

Looked at from the past, the loop will always exist in the future. It is unavoidable. That is what I mean when I state that the Charmed Ones are midwives to their destiny. In a return trip to the past, if they stay on the main track, they will always have a trip to 1670 on the horizon (unless of course the past they visit is after 1670, namely, That 70s Episode).

For future Wyatt and Chris, they may or may not have to go back to the past to discover what happened to Wyatt's powers. Is it possible that in a different past, Phoebe actually would get a premonition of the coming Ultimate Battle Mark I and avoid her own death? Of course, it is. If so, then the Ultimate Battle Mark I never takes place and Wyatt never loses his powers.

Time travel, if you allow it, is that simple or that probable from a quantum mechanical perspective. Now, did the production team fully grasp the mechanics of time travel. Probably not. Heck, most people simply get blown away by Quantum Physics.

Vandergraafk, here's what I guess confuses me about your theory:

In regard to Chris's "rebirith" (as you describe it), do you believe similar parallels can be drawn with:

Future Phoebe time-traveling in "The Three Faces of Phoebe" to ultimately save Cole's life (even though she was summoned against her will)?

Piper time-traveling in "A Witch in Time" to save Phoebe and Paige from getting vanquished?

Wyatt time-traveling (summoned from the future by his own mother) in "Imaginary Friends," to give his family insight on his future adulthood?

I guess I'm just perplexed; does your theory apply to any of those situations, as well?

[vandergraafk]

Before I could respond laiste came in with this neat reply:

I get what you are talking about vandergraafk with the "time loop" thing. If we want the future to be the one we see in "Forever Charmed" then Paige needs to NOT die at the hands of the Titans. Chris is the one who saved her. If Chris does not save her then we automatically have an alternate future from "Forever Charmed". I think it is safe to say that our "main" timeline is the one in which we have the "Forever Charmed" future. Agreed?

The main change here is Paige's survival. Everything in season six could be accomplished without Chris. I don't think he needs to have come back in time to maintain the FC (Forever Charmed) timeline. So long as Paige survives the Titans the main events would still happen IMO. I know that that point could be argued black and blue. Yes, Chris did have a huge affect on the past when he was there, BUT what exactly did he accomplish ?

It was Chris's presence in the past that proved to Gideon that Wyatt was a threat- so big a threat that the time line was polluted by Chris not only returning but allowing others to know he was from the future. Was it Chris's presence in the past that caused "evil Wyatt"? Chris came back to prevent Wyatt turning evil. Gideon tried to kill Wyatt because Chris came back to prevent Wyatt turning evil.

If Chris does not come back from the future NONE OF THAT HAPPENS!

All of this of course proves your time loop theory. As far as I can tell, the one defining event is saving Paige from the Titans. Theres no getting around the fact that it was all Chris here. If he doesn't save Paige by going back in time, she dies and we have a non FC timeline. BUT by going back in time he CAUSES the thing he is trying to prevent- "evil Wyatt". The only way that could happen is by Chris going back in time and causing it.


Does that make it any clearer or have I confused everyone more?

A new contributor to the Charmed Cafe chimed in with this observation:

OK, First wanna address Laiste's last comment. Gideon goes after wyatt because he is too powerful, not because chris comes back to save him. It may have brought it to his attention sooner, but if chris hadn't come back to save wyatt from evil, I am sure Gideon would have still gone after wyatt, just maybe not as soon as he did.

on to what vandergraafk was trying to say,, in "lazyman's" terms...

Future chris came back to ensure leo became an elder and save paige. According to him she dies on that day, which i never believed, which he probably lied about to get them to believe him and so he could manipulate them into doing what needed to be done to defeat the titans.

When future chris dies, Baby chris is born. But baby Chris would grow up, in theory, with a good brother, not evil. So when he comes back to save paige from the titans, there would be no need for him to stick around after saving paige. In chris crossed we learned that he came back to escape his evil brother's rule and to save him from turning evil. With longer hair to boot. So, really he had time to set things up with the valkyries and apparentl get a hair cut.

His time loop would be different the second time around with him coming back only to save paige and set leo up and not to save wyatt from evil. I believe if there was a second time and he needed to come back him and wyatt would come back together. A Surgical strike as chris would put it. He only change his future, not the charmed one's past.

Now lets go on to what i believe, or what could only make sence in this case and a few others...

There are 2 futures, a good one and an evil one. BUT the charmed ones defeated the titans in BOTH futures, and paige lives without chris' help. Why do I say this u say? because when Leather clad Bianca comes back from the future, the evil future, she boast about how the sisters wanted to go their seperate ways,(move out) and how paige says the "power of 2 will have to do" and you'd be suprised what's in the history books. And at that point the titans were last seasons's problem. Chris later mentions how piper dies in "the event" and how his grandfather raised him from then on.

Also in season 7 when Wyatt comes back from the future, the good future, he mentions how each of them influenced him. That means all three are alive long enough to do so. ect ect.

I'm sure comments are gonna come so i'll keep an eye out...

All of which prompted, whitelightertony to add some more questions:

I guess I must be slow, because I'm still confused...

So baby Chris grows up and becomes an adult.

A.) at what point in time must present-day Chris (the cute little boy we saw throughout Seasons 7 and 8), once he reaches his twenties, travel back in time to repeat the events of "Oh My Goddess"? And what is his motivation for doing this?

B.) when Future Chris fades away in "It's A Bad, Bad, Bad, Bad World," does that mean he gets transported back into his future body (picking up where things left off, after he walked through the portal to time travel back to 2003), and continues to live his life happily with Bianca and become the father to children?

[vandergraafk]

Before I could reply, chillboyx offered this curt response to whitelightertony's two questions:

A) According to what Bianca said, he won't have to. There is no evil wyatt future anymore.

B) He wouldn't go back to the future he came from because it no longer exist. He died, so I don't think he would even go to the Good future either. His life cycle would just be begining as a baby and he gets to live it all over again. His 22 year old self from the evil world is dead.

vandergraafk finally weighed in this response:

Let me try to answer whitelightertony's questions as best as I can.

A) Chris will be motivated to go back in time because an event will happen that did not happen when he first went back in time. That is, Paige will die - perhaps Phoebe, too. The Elders will be wiped out. The Titans will rule, at least for the interim.

What future Chris will see - in whatever future he resides in -, his world will abruptly change. Maybe Wyatt becomes evil because there are no Elders to prevent him from using his immense powers absolutely. I don't know, I don't much care. The point is: because something didn't happen, lots of changes will ensue.

To make the point perfectly plain, consider what happened to Paige in Centennial Charmed. When she accidentally orbed - and passed through the astral plane - she returned to a vastly different world. Perhaps Chris, too, has a similar experience when orbing. I don't know, but it's a good enough explanation for me.

Now, we know that in Centennial Charmed, Cole used his Avatar powers to alter one key event: Paige is killed - presumably by Cole - before she has the chance to become Charmed. The power of three is never reconstituted. As we know, in Charmed Again, Part 1, Cole is the first to learn that the Source thinks that Paige, until then just another potential Innocent victim of Shax, might somehow reconstitute the Charmed Ones. Suppose, instead of alerting Phoebe, Piper and Leo, Cole uses this information to kill Paige. In his own twisted understanding of his relationship with Phoebe, Cole blamed the revived power of three, namely, through the ascendance of Paige to Charmed status, as the cause of all his problems. (As I said, Cole really, really doesn't understand why Phoebe comes to reject him.)

Now the point of this discussion is not to highlight the instigator of an altered past. My focus is on the consequence of an event not happening. Centennial Charmed does an excellent job in depicting a world absent the power of three.

The one crucial event that is relevant for Chris and whatever future baby Chris as a growing child experiences is the saving of Paige's life. If Maite succeeds in taking her back to the arctic hideout, Paige's whitelighter powers will be extracted from her just as the other two whitelighter powers were. She will cease to exist. Chris doesn't have to lie about this. We know from the presentation that this is what will happen. Chris merely notes that history will state that on this day Paige died. And all hell broke loose! That's Chris's motivation.

Now, what makes some of this confusing is that we see a future where Chris came from, a future where Wyatt is evil, and the manor has been turned into a museum. That's one possible future in a world where Paige is dead, and possibly Phoebe, too. According to Chris, Leo is a non-factor in this world, and Piper died when he was 14. But this is only one possible future scenario to emerge from the fact that Paige died at the hands of Maite. There are many, many futures possible: futures both good and bad.

Certainly, if Paige died at the hands of Maite, there is no reason to assume that Leo would become an Avatar. Perhaps, too, the Ultimate Battle never takes place. Remember: with the vanquish of the Source, evil is rather disorganized. Zankou is only released to stave off the Avatar threat. In other words, maybe the power of two could survive a while until Wyatt is able to supplement the power of two with his own awesome powers. And, don't forget Chris. He's no slouch either. Perhaps he will be born in a post-Paige world, perhaps Prudence Melinda will be too.

So, okay, Paige is not dead and all of the events that we saw in Seasons 6, 7 and 8 actually happened. Chris is alive and well and is roughly 22. Maybe Piper is still alive, and she and Leo still have a good relationship. For Chris, this is a truly great time to be alive. But, one day it will all change because unless he goes back in time - or unless he delegates someone to go back in time to do what has to be done, namely, save Paige, protect the Elders and make Leo an Elder - his world will be altered in ways that are left to our imaginations. Whether this is done as a surgical strike or Chris, worried that his solution, namely, making Leo an Elder, might jeopardize his own chance at conception, decides to stick around as he did in Season 6, I cannot say. I suspect that he will have to stick around if only to make sure that his presence in Season 6 was necessary in shaping his own future.

Having said that, I feel compelled to respond to chillboyx's comments regarding Chris Crossed. (Welcome chillboyx to the Charmed Cafe. It's great that you just leaped right on in. More power to you.) As I indicated above, I view Chris Crossed as an episode more like Morality Bites than as a fixed future. It is a possible future and you have adequately explained what happened to the Charmed Ones in this episode. What I find a bit restricting is the insistence that there are only two futures: a good one and an evil one. No, there are a multiplicity of futures. Picture a bell shaped covered indicating the probabilities that any of these futures might exist. To the right side lie the good futures. On the left, the bad futures. One of the bad futures, not the most probable one, I suspect, is Chris Crossed. One of the good futures might be Forever Charmed until the point when Chris's world is changed if he does not go back in time.

Maybe that's too much science. So be it. It's a tool that I use to make sense of what I and others, laiste, for example, find uncomfortable logically. Maybe it's not the preferred tool of choice. But for me it's one that is highly illuminating.

In some respects, this is a tempest in a teapot. Chris's problem - his death - can be easily fixed. He simply needs to be transported back to his own future, hopefully the one to which he originally came from. What amazes me is that many fans forget that Chris was introduced at the end of Season 5 and have never bothered to square his raison d'etre in that episode pair (Oh My Goddess) with his character's raison d'etre in Season 6. The writers conveniently - too conveniently, for my purposes - drop any reference to Oh My Goddess during Season 6. Instead, they improperly graft on the Season 6 story arc onto his Season 5 appearance and then abandon the character at the end of the season. What a mess!

B) Why on earth should we assume that Chris vanished into the future when he dies at the end of Season 6? Is it because we have all seen the Three Faces of Phoebe where future Phoebe, a less probable future Phoebe, and past Phoebe fade away? But, they disappeared because the spell had fulfilled its purpose. Phoebe understood what she had to do: marry Cole. In It's a Bad, Bad, Bad, Bad World, there is no spell that has brought Chris from the future to answer a question in the present. Rather, there is a spell - and a potion - that probably will send Chris and Leo, as his guide, back to his own future. Unfortunately, Gideon makes a hash of that, as we all know.

Since we don't know what was in Gideon's potion, the one that he dipped the athame into in order to kill Wyatt, it is impossible to state how the vanquish of Wyatt (or Chris) would have occurred. If we expect a nuclear blast, as in the vanquish of Shax, we are disappointed. Chris doesn't go boom. Rather, his strength is gradually weakened, somewhat akin to how a whitelighter succumbs to darklighter poison. (By the way, what DID happen to Natalie's body in Blinded by the Whitelighter? Did it just vanish? Is that what happens when a whitelighter is vanquished - after all, they are already dead!) Maybe Chris's body vanishes because he is part whitelighter! Maybe it's the result of the potion that Gideon used. I don't know. What I do know is that there is absolutely NO REASON to assume that the vanishing of Chris in the present means that he was transported back to the future. There has never ever been an instance of that in Charmed. So, we cannot compare it to a previous episode. Nothing was said after Chris died, except to say that baby Chris was alive. As if that solved anything!

As for whitelightertony's previous questions, vandergraafk continued as follows:

I did like the way you phrased your initial response. It reminded me of Victor in Forever Charmed when he proclaimed that he was confused. Touching! (I really do mean that since Victor is just so great during Forever Charmed!)

Well, I now should like to answer your other questions relating to time travel. As I've already addressed the Three Faces of Phoebe, consider that one discussed.

In A Witch in Time, Piper goes back in time briefly to change one crucial event: Phoebe must not be allowed to save Miles. If she does, two of the Charmed Ones will die at the hands of a double dose of Baccara. Piper is not summoned via a spell; thus, this type of time travel is NOT comparable to that in the Three Faces of Phoebe. Piper steps into an open, uni-directional portal that will remain open and directed toward the past until future Baccara steps back in to the portal to reverse its directionality. Once she steps out of the portal and sets her self inside the SUV to persuade present Piper to direct Phoebe in the opposite direction, her task is essentially fulfilled. When present Piper does as instructed, after a painful, but poignant pinching of the upper arm convinces present Piper that the woman facing her is not a shapeshifted demon or glammed warlock, future Piper watches on until the moment when Miles dies in the shootout. Future Piper fades because that timeline no longer pertains to the present. The future has been changed!

By the way, I should note that fading or fading out has been used in now three Charmed episodes that I've discussed: It's a Bad, Bad, Bad, Bad World Part II (Chris fades away); The Three Faces of Phoebe (future Phoebe Frances Bey fades away, as does past Phoebe); and, now in A Witch in Time. Though the mechanism is the same, the reasons for the fading are different. Thus, I would not focus on the mechanism (fading) as I would the reason why. This is a distinction with a difference!

Now, Imaginary Fiends: that's a wierd one! As in the Three Faces of Phoebe, one of the Charmed Ones, this time, Piper, I believe, casts a spell and wishes for clarity with respect to baby Wyatt. Just as Phoebe was surprised to find two other Phoebes, Piper is surprised by future Wyatt suddenly appearing. And, how fortunate it is, since Wyatt is the only one who is able to see the demon tempting baby Wyatt. Now, the Charmed Ones can understand what is going on.

Of course, as the episode unfolds, there is a back and forth. Wyatt turns evil, Wyatt turns back to good. Oy ve, I'm getting a headache. Actually, though, this episode indicates how even a subtle change can have profound consequences. Wyatt does not turn evil right away. In fact, baby Wyatt may remain perfectly normal for several years. Juvenile Wyatt might be a pain, but adult Wyatt is definitely evil. Leo explains this quite nicely when he refers to the cumulative effect of a small change. Of course, it is Leo, too, who is able to resolve the issue when he gets baby Wyatt to trust him fully.

In the meantime, we see the Charmed Ones doing battle with an evil Wyatt somewhere in the underworld. But, this evil Wyatt, although he looks the same as evil Wyatt in Chris Crossed, is not the same evil Wyatt since the evil Wyatt in Chris Crossed is the product either of Gideon's failed attack (wimpy explanation) or the product of a world where there are no Elders to hem in Wyatt (a world that presumes the Titans have accomplished their dastardly deed).

In the end, Piper sends adult Wyatt back whence he came. Once again, a demonic threat was abated. And, yet another evil Wyatt episode came to an end.

I'll leave unanswered the question as to how this story squares with Season 6 which tried to assure us that the threat of Wyatt going evil was banished with Gideon's death. I never bought that line originally, so I am happy to accept a story development that suggests that life happens as it is lived. I may be prosperous today, but tomorrow I could be living under a bridge. I may try to insure that the latter is unlikely to occur, but it could. The Season 6 message seemed to be: kill enough demons, even ones who may not even be immediate threats, and out the traitorous Elder, then rest assured that Wyatt will never ever turn evil. Yeah, and pigs can fly!

[vandergraafk]

Whitelightertony had more to offer:


Quote:So, okay, Paige is not dead and all of the events that we saw in Seasons 6, 7 and 8 actually happened. Chris is alive and well and is roughly 22. Maybe Piper is still alive, and she and Leo still have a good relationship. For Chris, this is a truly great time to be alive. But, one day it will all change because unless he goes back in time - or unless he delegates someone to go back in time to do what has to be done, namely, save Paige, protect the Elders and make Leo an Elder - his world will be altered in ways that are left to our imaginations. Whether this is done as a surgical strike or Chris, worried that his solution, namely, making Leo an Elder, might jeopardize his own chance at conception, decides to stick around as he did in Season 6, I cannot say. I suspect that he will have to stick around if only to make sure that his presence in Season 6 was necessary in shaping his own future.



But my question is this: in 2026, how does the future version of Chris (who exists in a world where the Titans have been vanquishd and the Charmed Ones are still alive) know that he must travel back to 2003 to save Paige's life? This is a version of Chris who was born at the end of "It's a Bad, Bad, Bad, Bad World," and was absent (at least, in terms of what he remembers) during most of the events of Season 5 and Season 6.

Is he told this by his aunts? That he must time-travel in order to ensure that the past (the vanquishing of the Titans, and his own birth) remains intact? But wouldn't Chris be time-traveling under totally different circumstances than when he and Bianca sent Chris back through the time portal, as seen in the alternate future reality of "Chris-Crossed"?

So if Chris does time travel from the year 2026, then how and at what point is he eventually able to return to the timeline that he originally time-traveled from? Does he just disappear from his future reality (the way Future Phoebe presumably does when she's killed in "The Three Faces of Phoebe"), or is his fade-away indicative of Chris being sent back to 2026 to resume his life as a way of the universe "course-correcting" itself?


Quote:(By the way, what DID happen to Natalie's body in Blinded by the Whitelighter? Did it just vanish? Is that what happens when a whitelighter is vanquished - after all, they are already dead!)



I guess we're supposed to assume that, once the darklighter poison fully worked its way through Natalie's body, she was completely stripped of her whitelighter status and automatically transformed into the state of being a deceased mortal. So she essentially resumed the death process that had been interrupted by her being made a whitelighter, and she proceeded to the ghostly plane to hang out with Paige's adoptive parents and all of the other pure mortals whom the Charmed Ones have been unable to save from death.


Which prompted this response from vandergraafk:

I think you've answered your own question, whitelightertony. In whatever future that Chris finds himself in 2026 either he will have to learn from Leo or his aunts about the Titans or he will have to discover on his own if he should orb back into a different world (as Paige did in Centennial Charmed). And, you are absolutely right that this will be a different reason for his time travel. It won't be Bianca and Chris working together to prevent evil Wyatt from running amok. That is from a less probable future that has been rendered even less likely by the events of Season 5 and 6.

Of course, when he gets back to 2003, Chris can continue to use the line that he has already used in Oh My Goddess. On this day, it is written that Paige died. How are the 2003 Charmed Ones or Leo to know any differently? They may distrust him, as they do. But, Paige is independently onto the Titans. She finds out about them before Chris comes back. What she can't know is that Maite has it in her power to destroy Paige once and for all and thereby strip Paige of her whitelighter powers.

Your other questions are a bit more problematic since they require a novel response, one not attempted in Charmed. As I indicated earlier, Chris has to worry that his solution to the Titan threat (by elevating Leo to Elder status) carries with it the risk that Chris will not be conceived. Thus, he may have to stick around. Does that mean we will relive Season 6?

Hmmm. Since Season 6 is premised on the constancy of threats to baby Wyatt, and Chris holds vital information regarding the future that he came from in Chris Crossed, one might argue that Season 6 is pointless. Toss out all of the episodes where Chris instigates demonic vanquishes because of the threats they might pose to baby Wyatt.

Yet, I would argue that in Season 5, we had already seen the Charmed Ones having to deal with demonic attacks aimed at Wyatt. Baby's First Demon, as well as Sense and Sense-ability demonstrate that. What has to go is not demonic attacks, it is the instigation to pre-empt demonic attacks that emanates from Chris that must go. If the 2026 world that he comes from does not have an evil Wyatt, then what would be the point of his urging the sisters to go after any and every potential demon? In fact, there would be none. And, to insist on one would be highly illogical.

Suppose Chris does stick around to ensure that he is conceived and born, at some point he needs to be sent back to the future. Whether Gideon can interfere, I will leave to the imagination. If Gideon does interfere, then Paige or Phoebe will somehow have send Chris forward in time. This might require Chris to reveal to Phoebe and Paige that Gideon is a traitor. His aunts in the future clearly know this happened. They lived it. Chris becomes the interlocutor between future Phoebe/Paige and past Phoebe/Paige. Perhaps Phoebe or Paige can give future Chris some token, as future Cole did to future Baccara, in order to convince Phoebe/Paige of the veracity of Chris's statements regarding Gideon and the need to send him back to the future before It's a Bad, Bad, Bad, Bad World unfolds.

[vandergraafk]

Still, fans persist in perpetuating the myth that Chris lied about Paige's death. When that fails, they insist on canon. Worse still: they claim to know definitively what the writers intended. A sample will suffice:

ShantaD opined in response to chillboyx's comment:

Thanks for the welcome


Um, WAY too much emphasis on the titans taking over and saving paige. Chris lied, bottom line. So he could infultrate his position in the manor, gain their trust and become their whitelighter. I've seen every minute of those episodes and there is no part of me that believes that paige would have died on that day had Chris not come back and saved her. Piper even kills the titans on her own at the end with ease. Had phoebe and paige been stone, she could have killed the titans and saved them, if she didn't sooner somehow. Mother nature at her best.

.


I agree. Of course Chris lied. It all fits perfectly. He used his knowledge of the events to pretend to save Paige and manipulate himself into their lives. He and Bianca discuss making up a cover story to hide the real reason he goes back. He was even so nonchalant about saving Paige, he had time to change his clothes and get a haircut before orbing in (he didn't arrive through a portal as we saw him leave the future, he orbed in which means he was already in the past and he was wearing different clothes and had shorter hair). Obviously he'd been in the past waiting for the exact moment he needed to orb in to pretend to save Paige. The Titans are running amok, Elders are dying and Chris is getting a haircut and shopping before orbing over to the manor. Obviously he knew he wasn't needed to stop the Titans. The is not one single fact which supports Paige having died that day.

Another fan (p3charmedlunatic) stated:

i think im gonna have to agree with shantad he orbed in to the manor he didnt walk through the triqautra window on the wall like seen in chris-crossed , he was wearing diff clothes and you can tell the way he says "if i hadnt orbed in paige would have died" was a crock but after saying all that it comes down to continuity problems the writers were having yes he had shorter hair and was wearig diff clothes i think we have to relise the continuity problems.

Whitelightertony responded as follows:

The problem with tying Chris Crossed to Oh My Goddess is that you are making a leap that the writers never make. They drop the ball, as you noted. Chris Crossed is a future, a less probable one in my view, that one particular Chris may have come from. Perhaps in that future, Chris does save Paige, but his future is still messed up because there was something evil about Wyatt, too. I need to put Chris Crossed aside and treat it like Morality Bites in order to make sense of the time loop that Oh My Goddess presents. My argument, quite simply, is that no matter what future Chris finds himself in, he will always have to go back to the past to rescue Paige. Chris Crossed suggests that this action alone is not enough to fix Chris's problem in that particular future. More is required.



I still don't see how everyone thinks "Oh My Goddess" and "Chris Crossed" contradict each other. Just because we don't literally see the Titans alive in Chris's future reality from "Chris Crossed" doesn't mean they weren't ruling the world.

The Titans can't be everywhere at the same time. For all we know, they may have allowed Evil Future Wyatt to rule over San Francisco in exchange for a truce...they had an entire planet to subjegate.

This "Chris lied about Paige dying" theory from fans is simply a trite rationalization to cover up for the sloppy writing of that particular storyline.

There is simply no evidence to suggest that Chris lied about Paige's death at the hands of Meta.

And if Chris was really off getting his hair cut and shopping for clothes, why would he wait until THE EXACT SECOND before Meta was about to turn Phoebe into stone before orbing in?

This prompted a response by ShantaD:

And if Chris was really off getting his hair cut and shopping for clothes, why would he wait until THE EXACT SECOND before Meta was about to turn Phoebe into stone before orbing in?



Because he knew she wasn't going to die. That was the moment he needed to orb in to appear to save her. If he knew she was going to die, he would have orbed in sooner, before the Titan attacked. He didn't just arrive through the portal, he orbed in. Which means he was already in the past. And he knew she didn't die that day, so it was safe to cut it that close. It makes no sense that he would orb in that exact second and not sooner if he knew she did die that day, only if he knew she didn't.

He didn't even bring anything with him to save Paige. If he really traveled from the future to save her, you'd think he'd come prepared. He just picked up the potions that had been dropped on the floor.

I just don't see the Titans as any threat. They were already turning on each other. Leo already knew how to defeat them. And Piper did it all by herself. Chris wasn't needed. I don't think he changed a thing.

[vandergraafk]

Chillboyx re-entered the fray with these two comments:

Exaaaactly! p3charmedlunatic and ShantaD have good points. Don't forget chris also made an agreement with the Valkaries before going to "Save paige". Think of it this way... Besides the episode where Piper has to travel back to save phoebe and paige, What usually happens when one charmed one dies or is injured? Leo will orb in at the perfect time, or Phoebe could easily touch paige's stone body and have a premonition about everything that is going to happen, right? right? i mean how many episodes did phoebe save the day by having a premonition. That would have given her time to levitate out of the way of meta's attack, as she's done a million times before, grab the potion, ect ect. I don't think you're giving the charmed ones enough credit to be able to save themselves and have leo become an elder and make the charmedones goddesses all on their own without chris' "help". So your theory on the titans ruling in the future is completely baseless.

The writers made lots of mistakes here, but there is never an indication of the titans ever existing beyond Oh my goodness.

Oh, and you mention that once turned to stone the whitelighter's powers are extracted from the stone. but also, she has to take the stone paige with her, which would take more time for someone to intervene.

Also, u can't dismiss Chris crossed, it was written AFTER oh my goodness. It WAS chris' future and you saying its not a valid future in your opinion is pretty much the biggest piece i've ever heard. sorry dude. There are definately holes, but an entire episode, one that explains chris' entire reasoning for coming back that season at all, cannot be ignored. And it should definately be held higher than oh my goodness.

[vandergraafk]

ShantaD returned with an ostensibly exact understanding of the role of Chris Crossed in Charmedverse:

Chris Crossed was the writers showing us Chris's actual future and how and why he came back. It was meant to show the audience exactly what was going on in Chris's future. It certainly can't be dismissed. Chris saying Paige died and telling us the Titans ruled the future is never seen and we know Chris lies to hide things. Chris Crossed actually shows us what happened. That version of the future has to take precident as the truth over anything Chris claims in Oh My Goddess. Chris's claims in Oh My Goddess can be dismissed as lies, but the future in Chris Crossed actually happened. So it must be the central starting point in the discussion. We know the future in Chris Crossed is fact, all else is speculation. And the writers even put in that line about Chris sticking to his cover story when he arrived in the past.

Chris did next to nothing to help defeat the Titans. He didn't make Leo and Elder, that was happening independently. He didn't tell Leo how to make the sister's goddesses, Leo already knew. The Power of Three wasn't needed to defeat the Titans, Piper did it on her own. He didn't free Paige from being a stone statue, the dwarf, fairy and leprechaun did it. There's just no evidence that Paige died that day (or if she did die that she stayed dead, how many times have they all died and come back?) or that the sisters (especially Piper) and Leo couldn't have defeated the Titans on their own.

[vandergraafk]

Whitelightertony launched this detail response and brilliantly suggested the following scenario that depicts what might have happened had Chris not intervened:

Because he knew she wasn't going to die. That was the moment he needed to orb in to appear to save her. If he knew she was going to die, he would have orbed in sooner, before the Titan attacked. He didn't just arrive through the portal, he orbed in. Which means he was already in the past. And he knew she didn't die that day, so it was safe to cut it that close. It makes no sense that he would orb in that exact second and not sooner if he knew she did die that day, only if he knew she didn't.



Okay, do you mean to tell me that if Chris hadn't orbed in, Meta would have just giggled and said, "Teehee, look, I turned Paige to stone, I guess that's all the mischief I'll make for today..." and teleported away? Meta had already thrown Phoebe back, and would have turned Phoebe to stone too. So Meta clearly was going to orb away with Statuesque Paige in tow, so she could drain Paige of her orbing power (thus vanquishing Paige in the process).

Intervening to prevent Meta from whisking Statuesque Paige away was obviously the event that Chris had time-traveled to alter. Which implies that, if he time-traveled to change it, in the reality that he came from, it actually happened!

Shanta, what you're saying makes absolutely no sense. If Chris had known the EXACT MOMENT that Paige would be abducted by Meta, why wouldn't he have orbed in earlier to warn Paige not to orb at all? (and prevent her from alerting Meta)


Quote:He didn't even bring anything with him to save Paige. If he really traveled from the future to save her, you'd think he'd come prepared. He just picked up the potions that had been dropped on the floor.



That's probably because the Titans were still alive in Chris's future, so Chris and Bianca didn't have any idea how to vanquish them. Thus, Chris had nothing to bring with him to use against Meta. At the point we saw him in during "Chris Crossed" (when Chris went through the time portal), he and Bianca were doing their best just to escape Wyatt's wrath. Besides, Chris might have orbed into the attic directly from Valhalla, when he realized he hadn't been sent back as far as he wanted.


Quote:I just don't see the Titans as any threat. They were already turning on each other.



Only because Meta failed to bring Paige back with her, giving Cronus the excuse to kill her. If Meta had returned with Statuesque Paige (as she presumably did in Chris's future), she and her fellow Titans would have orbed up to the heavens and conquered the Elders.


Quote:Leo already knew how to defeat them.



But, without Chris's intervention, Leo never would have actually gone through with releasing the Olympians' essences, and the Charmed Ones never would have been able to defeat the Titans in the first place.


Quote:And Piper did it all by herself.



Only after Leo turned her into a goddess, which Chris motivated him to do because the Titans ruled Earth in his future.


Quote:Chris wasn't needed. I don't think he changed a thing.



Chris wasn't needed? Are you serious? Chris's persuasiveness was the reason Leo found the courage to turn the Charmed Ones into goddesses.

Here's what probably happened in Chris's future:

- Meta turns Phoebe into stone, and then teleports away with Paige
- Meta extracts Paige's magic, vanquishing Paige; she, Cronus, and Demetrius orb up to the heavens and kill all of (or most of) the Elders
- meanwhile, Piper (who doesn't know what happened to Paige) tries to "un-stone" Phoebe with the help of the magical community (and eventually succeeds)
- Piper sends Leo up to the heavens to consult with the Elders on how to "unstone" Statuesque Phoebe; Leo orbs in, and discovers a majority of the Elders scorched and dead; Leo breaks down emotionally
- Piper is frustrated because she calls for Leo, but he doesn't answer her call, and Paige is still nowhere to be found
- the leprechaun, fairy, and dwarf manage to free Phoebe from her petrified entrapment; Phoebe fills Piper in on Meta's attack
- Leo finally returns to the manor after a long absence; he informs Piper and Phoebe about the mass slaughter of the Elders, and tells them that he can sense Paige is dead; they conclude that one of the Titans must have stolen Paige's magic to invade the heavens, and Paige was destroyed in the process
- at some point, Piper, Phoebe, and Leo face off against the Titans, but are no match for them; the two surviving Halliwell sisters and their whitelighter escape after an unsuccessful battle
- for this same reason, any surviving Elders who escaped back to Earth are decimated by any or all of the three Titans, especially because the Power of Three no longer exists to protect them
- for the next several months, Piper pumps all of her energy and vengeance into trying to destroy the Titans; Phoebe grieves more openly, but shares Piper's vengeful sentiments; seeing his mommy and Auntie Phoebe so cold and hateful gradually becomes a bad influence on Wyatt
- half a year later, Piper emotionally breaks down after months of repressed sorrow and rage; Leo consoles her, and they share a passionate night together, conceiving Chris

Ironically, it could be Chris's absence in the first timeline that indirectly leads to Chris's conception and birth, which paves the way for Chris to travel back in time and change that reality

[vandergraafk]

ShantaD was none too pleased and offered this critique that offered the same baseless bromides repeated earlier:

Sorry, just don't agree with any of it.

But this one is easy and has been said over and over:
Quote:Shanta, what you're saying makes absolutely no sense. If Chris had known the EXACT MOMENT that Paige would be abducted by Meta, why wouldn't he have orbed in earlier to warn Paige not to orb at all? (and prevent her from alerting Meta)





Because he used his knowledge of the event to pretend to save her to gain their trust and manipulate himself into their lives. It had to look as if he saved her. If he had just showed up earlier and warned her, nothing would be gained for him. The point for Chris wasn't to save Paige, she was in no danger, but to pretend to be her savior from the future. If the real point was to save Paige and defeat the Titans, he would have shown up earlier to warn them. But that wasn't his plan at all.


Quote:Chris wasn't needed? Are you serious?


Yes, Chris's presence was unnecessary. He did nothing in regards to defeating the Titans. He probably didn't change that part of the past one bit.


Quote:Chris's persuasiveness was the reason Leo found the courage to turn the Charmed Ones into goddesses.



We don't know that. We would have to have seen the original sequence of events to know that. Leo knew what to do and how to do it. You cannot credit Chris with Leo's actions. Or with the Charmed Ones. His presence in the past was of no importance in this event.

Much of the rest of what you say is pure fan fiction. I'm trying to tie together what we have been shown, not engage in wild speculation about events not shown.

Whitelightertony dissected this and offered these responses:

Because he used his knowledge of the event to pretend to save her to gain their trust and manipulate himself into their lives. It had to look as if he saved her. If he had just showed up earlier and warned her, nothing would be gained for him. The point for Chris wasn't to save Paige, she was in no danger, but to pretend to be her savior from the future. If the real point was to save Paige and defeat the Titans, he would have shown up earlier to warn them. But that wasn't his plan at all.



So what do you believe actually happened to Paige in the timeline that Chris came from?


Quote:Yes, Chris's presence was unnecessary. He did nothing in regards to defeating the Titans. He probably didn't change that part of the past one bit.



What evidence is there to suggest that Leo would have gone through with turning the Charmed Ones into goddesses, had Chris not bullied him into it?


Quote:We don't know that. We would have to have seen the original sequence of events to know that. Leo knew what to do and how to do it. You cannot credit Chris with Leo's actions. Or with the Charmed Ones. His presence in the past was of no importance in this event.



Well, since we didn't see the original sequence of events, then your adament assertion that Chris lied about Paige's death is equally as unfounded speculation as mine is.


Quote:Much of the rest of what you say is pure fan fiction. I'm trying to tie together what we have been shown, not engage in wild speculation about events not shown.



Except that you have no logical evidence that Chris lied about Paige. Aside from Chris's reference to Paige lending him money in the future, which can easily be attributed to Chris's actions altering his own memories - - you have cited no feasible motivations for why Chris would need to orb in seconds before Meta was about to gust away with Paige, and then lie about Paige's fate while altering Leo's destiny and prodding Leo into a trap (Leo's detour to Valhalla).

[vandergraafk]

Still, some p3charmedlunatic was having none of this and still clung to the belief expressed in response to a quote from whitelightertony:

So what do you believe actually happened to Paige in the timeline that Chris came from?


i believe that maita did turn paige to stone in chris' future and that piper and phoebe saved her with the help of the magical beings that were there at the time

Whitelightertony dismissed this with the following:

Why would Meta turn Paige to stone, and then teleport out of the attic without bringing Paige with her?

Sorry, but if Paige was turned to stone in the timeline Chris came from, there was no way Meta was leaving the manor without her. Period.

P3charmedlunatic responded again:


phoebe was right there with potions and everything even though they were not workin' there is no way phoebe and piper would have let maita kill paige even if she did take her from the attic they would have found a way there not known for losing a sister and takin' it lyin' down they would have done

[vandergraafk]

Chillboyx took another stab at a dead dog and offered up the following:

Exactly, Chris was there to seem like he was helping them, when in actuality everyone hesitated to fit him in the story. Leo knew what had to be done, but chris talked him into it, Minus chris and u have Leo standing there letting the charmed ones die? I think not. he would have sprung into action doing what needed to be done as usual. Why would u or anyone think leo, or phoebe would stop doing what they do on this day? Chris was simply added in. Phoebe's always been pretty agile and evasive when it comes to dodging blast and things thrown at her head. Why would this day be any different?

Chris comes in and says paige dies on this day, we see later that its his cover story. We SEE that. It was his intention. Never is it shown that the titans rule in the future or lived passed that day. Someone wrote a book apparently and convinced alot of people of this. I have not read it, and apparently some have. Which is cool, I think its awesome that so many fans are out there. But it doesn't take away from what we actually see on the show. Chris' deception, his valid future and paige being alive well into the future.

[vandergraafk]

After seething for a few days, vandergraafk came back with the following after carefully reading point and counterpoint:

ShantaD, at the risk of being really, really rude, I have to complain about your method of analysis. First, you take the extrapolation of whitelightertony and argue that all of this is fan fiction. No, it's the logical consequence of actions depicted in Oh My Goddess. It's only "fictional" - if we look at it from your point of view - if it was never stated expicitly or shown on TV, it is fictional, a debatable point of view. This point of view is completely in accord with your utterly useless and totally repressive insistence on "canon". As one of the high priestesses of "canon", you are extremely dismissive of other points of view which don't correspond to your highly restrictive view of Charmedverse.

As for your second line of attack, thank God that you did not seek to prosecute Charles Manson. The deputy DA who prosecuted that trial could never show that Charles Manson killed anyone in the Tate/LaBianca murders. Nevertheless, he was convicted and is sitting in prison and periodically denied parole. So, how was he convicted?

Though Mr. Manson did not have to pull a trigger, draw a blade or do any of the other horrendous things that the Manson family did, he was the spiritual force behind the whole mess. He basically pulled the strings and manipulated other human beings into carrying out these diabolical acts.

So, what does any of this have to do with Chris. You claim that "Chris did next to nothing to help defeat the Titans". Yet, the story, which you otherwise use as your guide to Charmed, tells you exactly what he did. He intervened in time to save Paige. He practically cajoled Leo into becoming an Elder by telling him that it was Leo's destiny to do what no other Elder could do, namely, unleash the powers of the Greek Gods/Goddesses and impart them to the Charmed Ones. Chris, then, instructs the Charmed Ones in what their roles are and what they have to do. He later serves as a decoy in order to throw the remaining male Titans off of Leo's track (when they suspect that someone must still be alive). He did nothing? Hardly! He is as guilty, if you will, as Charles Manson, though we could scarcely fault Chris for helping to defeat the Titans. Your statement is ludricous in just about every respect.

As for the major premise underlying much of your "analysis" of Chris, where, on Earth, do we get the idea that Chris lied? It seems to me that you took a snippet from Season 6 and applied it to all of the events that Chris was involved in. I think it was Piper who remarked that "You lied to us". That was a specific reference to a specific event. It is NOT an across the board condemnation of everything Chris was involved in. As I have argued above, Chris doesn't have to tell us anything about what happened on that one particular day (involving the Titans). We know what will come next. Paige will be taken away by Meta, her whitelighter powers will be stolen, and she will be reduced to ashes. That's exactly what happened to the other two whitelighters. (I thank whitelightertony for speculating about a statuesque Phoebe. And, I think it highly plausible that the dwarves, elves, leprechauns, etc. could have eventually freed Phoebe from this state, although Phoebe did help the little people in this task. I suppose Piper could as well.) There's no speculation here, no need to invent fictional fan-based stories. It's all plain to see. So, why perpetuate the notion that Chris lied about this?

As for whether the Titans ruled, I have no idea. All I am certain of is that in the future that Chris came from, a future that may or may not be the one seen in Chris Crossed, there apparently are no Elders and Wyatt is all-powerful. Were the Titans defeated at some point? Perhaps. Maybe the Avatars, Zankou, the Charmed Two and juvenile Wyatt were enough to defeat them. Perhaps during this battle, Piper died when Chris was 14. I don't know, and it really doesn't matter. When you accuse us of stating this, you are setting up a straw man that you can easily knock down. Unfortunately, no one would ever set up such a straw man. If you want a reasoned explanation/extrapolation of what might have happened, look at whitelightertony's excellent contribution.

Elder, of course, characters from one plane of existence can appear in another. We know from Centennial Charmed that the Avatars are beyond the contraints of time and place. They exist, according to Avatar Alpha, outside of time and space. From The Courtship of Leo Wyatt, we know that Leo, Piper and a darklighter can exist on a different plane of reality. Why couldn't any whitelighter or darklighter, for that matter. Now, perhaps you mean something slightly different.

Could a character from one future come back to a past whereby that future is a future with a low level of probability that it exists as a continuation of the main time line? In other words, if Chris Crossed is not the main future for a world where Paige is dead, but only a less probable future, why should he still be able to coexist in a past where that future is not very likely?

My answer to that would be two-fold: first, in The Three Faces of Phoebe, Frances Bey Phoebe is a Phoebe who probably came from a less probable future, one where Phoebe does not marry Cole, one where Phoebe realizes that he is possessed by the Source and eschews any further involvement. (Unfortunately, ljones, I don't think the Charmed Ones in this less probable future are going to be understanding of Cole possessed by the Source either. But surely, there must be a future where your desire is met.) Second, the good Wyatt who appears in Imaginary Fiends probably comes from the main time line when he is accidentally conjured by Piper. The evil Wyatt does not; yet, he exists in the Charmed Ones' present. Now, to repeat: this evil Wyatt is NOT THAT evil Wyatt (the one in Chris Crossed), even though they look alike. (Sorry, ShantaD, but appearances can be deceiving. I know he looks like that evil Wyatt (gosh, do I now have to check out his haircut and attire?), but it's not the same evil Wyatt. Worse: do you really want to fixate on little details like attire/haircuts? If so, was the apartment that Cole came back to in Centennial Charmed, when he picked up the photo of Phoebe and him, a different apartment from the one when Phoebe picks up that self-same picture that is now curiously sitting on the opposite side of the bedstand when Cole had removed it from that self-same stand. Holy BLOOPER!) This evil Wyatt comes from a future where the Elders may very well be alive and well, but Wyatt, because of the curse placed on the teddy bear by Vicor, eventually turns evil. Again, a different, less probable future impinges on a dominant time line (however briefly).

I hope this is getting clearer. I hope, too, that my explanations are getting better. Maybe one day, I can boast, like Paige in Sam I Am, "I am good at this!" Ah, well, the dreams of a dyed in the wool Paige-head!

vandergraafk added:

Alas. as for the other central tenet of ShantaD's point, that she KNOWS that Chris Crossed is the center around which all revolves is speculation pure and simple. That she claims to know what the writers intended is beyond me. Has she interviewed each writer of the production team? Does she have transcripts of the discussion that surely preceded Chris Crossed? I thought the point of me including the quote from Brad Kern about the whole Zankou Chicken thing was to indicate that there WERE discussions among a group of people, that maybe the participants, individually or collectively, don't recall all of the particulars, that maybe transcripts or at least notes of such discussions may exist (subpoena anyone?) and that anyone who pretends to know for certain what the writers intended is claiming way too much knowledge!