Post by vandergraafk on Sept 27, 2007 18:23:02 GMT -5
In the Charmed Cafe, it was noted by Esmeralda that a young Christy might have been saved by Coop's ring. Below, I have included the entire posting. Please ignore the dig at the Charmed Ones and their so-called self-absorption and focus instead on the suggestion. In my reply, following posting, I analyze this suggestion thoroughly:
Esmeralda noted in the Charmed Cafe:
"Then with anyone being able to use Coop's ring, rather than just going back to destroy the Triad, they should've used it to go back and rescue Young Christy and destroy Dumain at that time, and then bind Christy's power, the way the sisters bound Tyler, another kid with similar problems who couldn't control it. That would've taken care of the problem without any need to vanquish fellow witches. And that would mean that Billie would never be manipulated and their parents never killed. A *much* better solution than the one shown on Forever Charmed, where life means nothing unless it's a Halliwell life."
Now, such a comment might seem ripped out of the blue. Well, perhaps. Indeed, the entire discussion emerged from a debate over how much "blame" should be placed on Christy for the Ultimate Battle. Whitelightertony claimed that Christy was convinced, while others, including me, opted for brainwashed as the better explanation. So, here is the background to the above comment:
Ms Foxfire got us started with this comment, excerpted from a slightly more encompassing posting:
"I don't think Christy was ever an innocent. She knew she had been manipulated, or at least Billie tried to explain that to her. Did she listen? No.
I, at first, assumed the Charmed Ones were being selfish but after eight years (five for Paige) of demon fighting, they should be able to want to be normal. Personally, I've never fought demons like any of them but I would assume it's exhausting and trying."
This prompted whitelightertony to respond as follows:
"No, Christy was convinced that the Charmed Ones were evil and a threat to Billie, so even when Billie tried to talk some sense into her Christy couldn't fathom the possibility that Billie might be right. The concept of the Charmed Ones being unredeemable was too engrained in Christy's psyche."
In response, I suggested that this was too extreme a position to take. Rather, I argued:
"Christy "convinced"? Of anything? No, unfortunately, what Christy was was thoroughly and slavishly brainwashed. I supposed this was Charmed's attempt to incorporate the Manchurian Candidate into the series. Why not? It borrowed liberally from plenty of fine films."
Esmeralda agreed, but planted the seeds that gave rise to the comment at the start of this posting:
"Exactly. That's why I think she was truly the Ultimate Innocent, which the sisters should've, but didn't, save."
Whitelightertony wanted nothing of this and suggested implicitly that what Esmeralda and I were saying was really a distinction with a difference. He wrote:
"Convinced, brainwashed. Same difference."
This led me to reply even more precisely as follows:
Convince suggests persuasion. Rational arguments theoretically can alter one's perceptions if these are grounded in rational thought and do not involve faith or superstition. However, a brainwashing can be so thorough, as it was in the Manchurian candidate that maybe it becomes impossible to "rescue" the victim.
"In one respect, I agree, Esmeralda, Christy, young Christy, the little girl who had been kidnapped, isolated and brainwashed for 15 years, was the Ultimate Innocent. However, that Christy was already dead before the Christy whom the Triad had great plans for was allowed to "escape" from the Underworld. No longer an innocent but a "convinced" and thorougly brainwashed advocate for the vanquish of the Charmed Ones to the benefit of the demonic Underworld, a fact she was keenly aware of and withheld from her "beloved", but easily manipulated sister Billie, Christy was only innocent to the extent that she probably was unaware that the TRIAD intended for her and Billie to die along with the Charmed Ones."
Esmeralda noted in the Charmed Cafe:
"Then with anyone being able to use Coop's ring, rather than just going back to destroy the Triad, they should've used it to go back and rescue Young Christy and destroy Dumain at that time, and then bind Christy's power, the way the sisters bound Tyler, another kid with similar problems who couldn't control it. That would've taken care of the problem without any need to vanquish fellow witches. And that would mean that Billie would never be manipulated and their parents never killed. A *much* better solution than the one shown on Forever Charmed, where life means nothing unless it's a Halliwell life."
Now, such a comment might seem ripped out of the blue. Well, perhaps. Indeed, the entire discussion emerged from a debate over how much "blame" should be placed on Christy for the Ultimate Battle. Whitelightertony claimed that Christy was convinced, while others, including me, opted for brainwashed as the better explanation. So, here is the background to the above comment:
Ms Foxfire got us started with this comment, excerpted from a slightly more encompassing posting:
"I don't think Christy was ever an innocent. She knew she had been manipulated, or at least Billie tried to explain that to her. Did she listen? No.
I, at first, assumed the Charmed Ones were being selfish but after eight years (five for Paige) of demon fighting, they should be able to want to be normal. Personally, I've never fought demons like any of them but I would assume it's exhausting and trying."
This prompted whitelightertony to respond as follows:
"No, Christy was convinced that the Charmed Ones were evil and a threat to Billie, so even when Billie tried to talk some sense into her Christy couldn't fathom the possibility that Billie might be right. The concept of the Charmed Ones being unredeemable was too engrained in Christy's psyche."
In response, I suggested that this was too extreme a position to take. Rather, I argued:
"Christy "convinced"? Of anything? No, unfortunately, what Christy was was thoroughly and slavishly brainwashed. I supposed this was Charmed's attempt to incorporate the Manchurian Candidate into the series. Why not? It borrowed liberally from plenty of fine films."
Esmeralda agreed, but planted the seeds that gave rise to the comment at the start of this posting:
"Exactly. That's why I think she was truly the Ultimate Innocent, which the sisters should've, but didn't, save."
Whitelightertony wanted nothing of this and suggested implicitly that what Esmeralda and I were saying was really a distinction with a difference. He wrote:
"Convinced, brainwashed. Same difference."
This led me to reply even more precisely as follows:
Convince suggests persuasion. Rational arguments theoretically can alter one's perceptions if these are grounded in rational thought and do not involve faith or superstition. However, a brainwashing can be so thorough, as it was in the Manchurian candidate that maybe it becomes impossible to "rescue" the victim.
"In one respect, I agree, Esmeralda, Christy, young Christy, the little girl who had been kidnapped, isolated and brainwashed for 15 years, was the Ultimate Innocent. However, that Christy was already dead before the Christy whom the Triad had great plans for was allowed to "escape" from the Underworld. No longer an innocent but a "convinced" and thorougly brainwashed advocate for the vanquish of the Charmed Ones to the benefit of the demonic Underworld, a fact she was keenly aware of and withheld from her "beloved", but easily manipulated sister Billie, Christy was only innocent to the extent that she probably was unaware that the TRIAD intended for her and Billie to die along with the Charmed Ones."