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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 11, 2006 15:51:38 GMT -5
This seemingly innocuous episode has provoked great controversy in the world of Charmed. A relatively straightforward backstory to Phoebe's high school days has prompted many fans to criticize the actions of Phoebe and Paige during the story's denouement when both allow Scabbard demons to kill Rick, a three-strikes criminal, who has just extorted Phoebe into assisting him in an armoured car heist and demands that Phoebe change his identity magically. That Phoebe complies - with Paige's tacit consent - and provides Rick with the face of nephew Chris who is being protected from the Scabbard demons by a crystal cage in the attic comes as a shock. Surely, Phoebe and Paige must know that the Scabbard demons will attack the unprotected Rick cum Chris and vanquish him. Indeed, Paige suggests that Phoebe take cover after the makeover has been completed by pointing out that it might get messy. As if on cue, the Scabbards attack and Rick is vanquished.
For Charmed fans, this resolution was alarming. Had Paige and Phoebe just conspired to kill a mortal? How could this action be reconciled to the Wiccan rede? Moreover, hadn't Phoebe slammed Cole in "Sam, I Am" when Cole justifies his vanquishing of the biker bar bandits as criminals by stating that the bandits, however bad, were still human? Is there a double standard here?
Below is a summary of sum of the many comments made by a variety of fans. What position do you take?
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 11, 2006 15:55:14 GMT -5
vandergraafk opined:
I'm confused. Is someone speaking up for Rick? Did Paige and Phoebe act like teenagers? Umm, excuse me, but there was a hostage to free. Granting Rick's request - in a way that certainly pleased him - allowed the sisters to free the hostage. They were protecting an Innocent and giving Rick what he wanted. That Rick fell victim to scabber demons is not the sisters' fault. They are not punishing a man who is clearly guilty of several crimes (3 strikes candidate). They are protecting an Innocent.
Clearly, neither Paige nor Phoebe has crossed a line, as Phoebe did in Morality Bites. Now, whether the sisters crossed a line in the whole Avatar saga.... now, that's worth discussing. Is anybody bothered by that?
Which provoked this response from Xenith:
I'm not really defending Rick, he was scum no doubt about it. But he didn't deserve to die horribly like that.
Also Rick had already told them where the hostage was, at that point he was only using Phoebe as his leverage. So again all Paige had to do was orb the &%$#@ gun and problem solved. Not only that after they cast the spell on Rick he took his gun off of Phoebe, they could have easily disarmed him (Like Phoebe had countered plenty of would be attackers), saved him from the scabbards (by orbing to Piper who had the P3 spell). Then they could have either cast a memory spell or gotten whitelighter dust and let Rick serve out the rest of his sentence in jail.
When Phoebe told Paige to make Rick look like Chris they both knew exactly what was going to happen, they knew that they were sentencing Rick to death right then and there. Just because they weren't actually the ones to physically kill him did not mean they aren't responsible. The way they used the Scabbard demons is equivalent to sicking attack dogs on someone to kill them or hiring an assassin to kill someone. The argument of he wanted it just doesn't fly, he did not specifically request to look like Chris, the 2 Halliwell sisters chose that look for him knowing full well that it would mean he would die. That is playing God, that is punishing the guilty.
Which provoked another fan to respond:
Nice try, but it doesn't work. One, the sisters had NO RIGHT to punish Rick. That was the job of the police. Two, all Paige had to do was orb the gun out of Rick's hand. So many people have pointed this out that I find it amazing that someone would actually defend Paige and Phoebe's actions. And yeah . . . it was the sisters' fault that Rick fell victim to the demons. All Paige had to do was orb the gun out of his hand and not give Rick, Chris' face. But she didn't and a man who did not have to be killed, was murdered in cold blood. Those demons who had killed Rick were not the only ones with blood on their hands. Phoebe, and especially Paige, have the same blood on their hands.
Which prompted vandergraafk to respond as follows:
Okay, I will accept that Paige could have orbed the firearm out of Rick's hands. Second, I will have to examine the episode again to consider the hostage question. In other words, to what degree were the sisters certain that the hostage would be freed if they did not meet Rick's deman? Third, clearly in Morality Bites Phoebe's direct action caused harm to the ball player. At best, Paige and Phoebe's actions indirectly caused harm to Rick. Were they certain the scabbard demons' toxin would be deadly to Rick? Interesting debate, though!
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 11, 2006 15:59:57 GMT -5
But the issue was not settled, at least not yet:
The big difference in the two though is that the guy in Morality Bites got off.
Rick on the other hand was already and jail. Broke out of jail with teen Phoebe's help. Took two hostages and force Phoebe to go robe a armored car.
Rick was so far beyond gulity that once the cops would have got him he would have never got out of jail.
The whole thing you are missing is one guy got of the other did not.
One guy was found guilty the other was not.
Here's any exmaple in really life. You have two guys one was found not gulity of let murder. The other was found gulity. The gulity one get's away and takes hostages. So that's just adding to his time in jail. There will not be a new trial for him brake out if jail. So at the end of the day anything that happen to the gulity person who brakes out of jail is kind of fair game.
And your post further proves how wrong it was for Phoebe and Paige to set Rick up to be murdered. Rick would have spent the rest of his life in prison. He would not have had the opportunity to hurt anyone else.
No court in the country would find Phoebe in Paige gulity of Rick being killed. Becasue A) He was all ready in jail. B) Broke out. C) would have also been put away longer for armed robber. D) Taking hostages.
Ever one from the elders down to the cops would hav just shurged and saw it for what it was two people defending themselves.
Yes Paige could have orbed the gun. But then Rick would have gone after it and he my have still been killed or would have killed either Phoebe and Paige.
Greene got off on a technicality meaning that he was not gulity. Meaning that he was then innocent in the eyes of the law. Yes he hurt someone close to Phoebe but he was let off. Well he was still gulity in Phoebe's eyes he was not in the eye of the law.
That's where the whole line "And that's when she crossed the line from protecting the innocent to punishing the guilty." Comes from and way it will not ever appeal to Rick.
And provoked this response:
Oh, I think they would find them guilty. They had other options but instead chose to punish the guilty rather than see him put in jail. Greene was guilty but got off on a technicality. Rick was guilty but Phoebe broke him out of jail. In fact, Phoebe would have been arrested for that as well. In both cases, it wasn't for Phoebe (or Paige) to kill them. They punished the guilty, and thus forgot the lesson learned in Morality Bites. And as a result, Charmed lost a lot of viewers. Notice the ratings drop after that episode. Although it wasn't nearly as bad as the drops we saw in seasons 7 and 8.
And yet, the comments kept coming:
Phoebe broke him out as teen Phoebe. And they really would not be found gulity for defending themselves. Rick had a gun. And Greene was not gulity if he got off. That's why it's two different things.
One is them defending themselves. Let's say they got the gun from the Rick. Then what? They would still have to attack him to stop him from getting away. Which would mean they would also have to make sure he would not get the gun.
He was and armed and dangers man. Who had taken hostages as well. But this statement did not sit well with another fan:
It doesn't matter how guilty Rick was or what Rick did. The lesson they were supposed to have learned is to protect innocents not punish the guilty. So in a way you're kind of contradicting yourself when you talk about how guilty Rick was compared to the other guy but then saying that their Morality Bites lesson doesn't apply.
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 11, 2006 16:04:13 GMT -5
Xenith reiterated his position:
I'll say it again, as soon as the Charmed Ones transformed him Rick took his gun off of Phoebe to check himself out, there was absolutely no way possible that he could have shot anyone before Paige orbed the gun. Also he has already told them where Ramona was located.
Paige was several feet away from him, she could easily orb the gun either into her own hand or just out of the room/manor. After that a very mortal Rick could be stopped a dozen ways in mere seconds.
1) Aim the gun at him, odds are that would have stopped him from attacking like it did Phoebe, if not then shoot to wound if possible.
2) Phoeb-Fu, orb the gun Rick would be stunned briefly, more than enough time for Phoebe right next to him to knock him down or out. (Heck Phoebe on her own probably could have easily disarmed Rick once his gun was off her, she's done it to demons much tougher than Rick.)
3) If he tries to run or attack, just orb him.
4.) Orb something into his head, just like Paige later did to Maya in Run, Piper Run, sure Piper might not have appreciated the mess, but it's better than killing him.
After Rick was stopped in some way they could do a quick spell reversal before the Scabbards came, orb Piper in with the spell to kill the Scabbards (using Rick as bait, but saving him), or orb the three of them to Piper (again using Rick as bait, but saving him). Then all that would be left to do is a memory spell, or some whitelighter dust... Rick goes back to jail for life with no knowlege of magic, and he can't harm anyone again... I'm failing to see how killing was the only option or in any way necessary?
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 11, 2006 16:05:09 GMT -5
Vandergraafk chimed in with the following:
Well, having watched the episode again last night, let me add that some of us are reading perhaps way too much into this episode. First, before the denouement, while Rick and Phoebe were in the patrol car awaiting the armored car, Phoebe was told not once, but twice that if Rick got what he wanted, then the hostage (Ramona) would go free. Second, Phoebe's attempt to create the illusion of fire in the armored vehicle did not quite work out. The driver's sleeve was on fire, a fact that Rick could not have cared less about. Third, at the manor when Rick supposedly tells Paige and Phoebe the exact location of Ramona, Phoebe quite rightly asks why the girls should believe him. Fourth, clearly Paige could have orbed the shotgun from Rick at any time.
Now, did Phoebe when she suggested to Paige that Rick's wish be granted and Paige, though initially taken aback, agreed, commit an egregious act? Some of you have argued that it would have been better for the criminal justice system to handle this case. But wait! Magic has been exposed to the extent that Rick knows what Phoebe is certainly capable of. How are the sisters to protect their secret? Well, Piper could have frozen Rick, had she been there. Paige could have orbed Rick someplace, and they could have applied some magic dust to erase his recent memory. But remember, the Elders don't like going this route because important events can be forgotten: dental appointments, kids' birthdays, etc. Though, I must add, for Rick this is hardly a concern. Is he going to forget an appointment with his public defender? Hardly.
The easiest way out was to grant Rick his wish and allow events to unfold as they would. This is exactly what Phoebe and Paige chose. Of course, the easiest path is not always the best, especially if it results in the death of a human. (By the way, this is the argument that Phoebe has already used against Cole after he has liquidated to biker criminals in Sam I Am.)
Another factor to consider is time. It appears from a viewing of the episode that Phoebe is under the constraint of time. Rick is demanding immediate action and what is called for is a quick decision. Are quick decisions always the best? Hardly. But Phoebe's improvisation clearly satisfied Rick, even if it led to his own destruction.
One might argue that Phoebe had had sufficient time to plan a course of action. After all, she already knew what Rick wanted while awaiting the armored car. Yet, she, the witch with no active powers, is alone. Any solution to the problem would have required either the participation of Paige or Piper. (Leo was on hiatus in the land of milk and Elders!) Unless she had the opportunity to speak with either of her sisters, which she did not, any course of action was going to be spontaneous. And, as I indicated above, spontaneous actions are not always the best. Thus, I conclude that, although in retrospect the action taken may not have been the best course, it probably was the only course to eliminate an ongoing danger, not just to Ramona, but to magic in general.
The comparison to Morality Bites probably falls short since we do not know enough about what Phoebe did to the player with respect to planning. Was her act then a pre-planned action (malice aforethought) or a spontaneous decision? The better comparison perhaps is to Cole in Sam I Am, though there too the comparison falls short since there is no hostage complicating the issue.
As for those of you discussing the American judicial system, please remember that the American system only focuses on guilt or non-guilt. If you want a criminal system to incorporate innocence, then you must look to the Scottish legal tradition where three outcomes are possible: guilt, acquittal (non-guilt) or innocence. The American/English system may have its advantages. Though I would hardly pronounce OJ Simpson innocent. He was acquitted.
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 11, 2006 16:06:57 GMT -5
Now the focus shifted to a discussion of how well the story had been crafted. One fan sought to downplay the story by writing as follows:
On this Rick issue: One could readily suppose the sisters acted in self defense. Besides, it was good use of a story plot line to use the demons hunting Chris and then provide a reason why they would stop looking so he could continue in season 6. Remember, it's just a story line and what ifs just create other possible storylines. As to the inconsistency in being punished or not for uses of magic which break the rules, the sisters were doing this all through the first three seasons. Every time Piper froze a room, just to take a few seconds to think, when it had nothing to do with demons, it was for personal gain. I could relate a lot of examples.
But this argument did not sit well with several other fans:
Actually, it was a terrible use of a story plot. Whenever a plot point or resolution causes a big segment of the audience to tune out, it is a bad choice. It also contradicted a lesson learned in Morality Bites. I don't care if the courts pronounced one guilty and the other innocent--the lesson in Morality Bites was it was not the sisters' jobs to punish the guilty, which is what they did in Hyde School Reunion. There were other ways to resolve the situation with both Rick and the Scabber Demons, but the writers didn't bother and thus destroyed Phoebe and Paige's characters further with their sloppy and easy fix, as well as alienated much of the audience in the process.
And another fan opined:
If it was a matter of self-defense, all Paige had to do was ORB THE GUN from Rick. Instead, she and Phoebe had agreed to set Rick up to be murdered by demons. I'm sorry, but I don't think that the two sisters had a good excuse for their actions.
I don't think that the sisters should have been punished for using magic for personal gain. There is no such rule amongst Wiccans. But there is a rule for using magic to deliberately harm another person . . . especially if that person is an innocent OR if there was another way NOT TO HARM that person. Paige had another way to prevent Rick from no longer being a threat . . . she could have orbed the gun from his hand. Also, she and Phoebe could have used a memory spell on him. I'm sure that a memory spell must have been used on Phoebe's other former classmates.
The point with respect to personal gain was seconded by Xenith as follows:
What's especially sad is that the Wiccan Rede was even mentioned in the first Episode...by Phoebe...
Phoebe: Actually, a witch can be either good or evil. A good witch follows the wiccan rede. 'An it harm none, do what ye will.'
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 11, 2006 16:11:00 GMT -5
None of which pleased vandergraafk who responded as follows:
First, my question posed, oh, like a week ago, has still not been addressed. Exactly how did the sisters know that the scabber demons would instantaneously attack Rick/Chris? Weren't their actions spur of the moment responses to a hostage situation? It has been asserted that the sisters knew exactly where Ramona was being held. Certainly, Rick gave them a location, but Phoebe correctly queried whether that was just another lie Rick was telling. Second, in Pre-witched, the sisters faced a similar choice. Do what the warlock wanted or be responsible for the death of yet another innocent? Here they knew the Warlock meant what he claimed. In Hyde School Reunion, Rick was not a man to be trusted. To wit: his actions vis-a-vis the robbery of the armored vehicle. Phoebe complied in part to ensure that no harm would be done to the guards. Yet, Rick betrayed this hope by brutalizing the guards. Had the sisters had an opportunity to plan a course of action, then the claim that they had harmed a human might have some validity. It does not.
I am fascinated further by the assertion that this resolution to a hostage situation turned off a lot of viewers. How do we know that? Was this the one episode that singlehandedly brought down Charmed? I doubt it. Oh, it may have upset purists, but exactly what is the definition of a purist? There are those who believe that a fourth (half)-sister violated the Charmed prophecy. Were they turned off by Charmed Again? There are those upset by the resurrection of the Triad, not to mention the brief re-emergence of the Source. Were they turned off by Desperate Housewitches?
Please don't get me wrong. I am not minimizing the issue. Clearly, Paige could have orbed the gun away from Rick. But, you know sometimes Paige is slow to do these things. For example, in Forever Charmed she has to be told by Piper to orb Coop's ring. So, maybe Paige is not the quickest wit on the spot.
And, he invited fans to have another look:
Revisit the episode. It's Phoebe who broaches the issue, not Paige. Paige looks dumbstruck when Phoebe makes the suggestion. But, she goes along with Phoebe. By the way, Paige looking dumbstruck is a frequently recurring character trait in many an episode. But, please address the main issue. How can you simply blame the sisters if you don't definitely deal with the hostage situation and the lack of a plan that forced the sisters to improvise? You might not like the outcome, but it worked. Rick sure was pleased, at least initially!
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 11, 2006 16:14:37 GMT -5
But this failed to settle the issue either. As one fan noted:
In other words, to what degree were the sisters certain that the hostage would be freed if they did not meet Rick's demand?
You’re making excuses that do not make sense. How does changing Rick's face to match Chris’ and setting him up to be killed by demons were going to free the hostage? How does setting Rick up to be killed by demons going to guarantee that the hostage would be freed?
Quote:Rick on the other hand was already and jail. Broke out of jail with teen Phoebe's help. Took two hostages and force Phoebe to go robe a armored car.
Rick was so far beyond gulity that once the cops would have got him he would have never got out of jail.
The whole thing you are missing is one guy got of the other did not.
One guy was found guilty the other was not.
Here's any exmaple in really life. You have two guys one was found not gulity of let murder. The other was found gulity. The gulity one get's away and takes hostages. So that's just adding to his time in jail. There will not be a new trial for him brake out if jail. So at the end of the day anything that happen to the gulity person who brakes out of jail is kind of fair game.
Are you saying that because Rick was a convicted felon, “the sisters” had the right to set him up to be killed? Are you kidding me? Because I disagree. No matter how you put it, Phoebe and Paige are guilty of conspiracy to commit murder. Period. They may not have killed Rick with their own hands, but they made sure he would be killed, when they could have dealt with the situation in another manner – one that would ensure he would continued to be punished by the justice system. They had no right to set him up to be killed, when they had another means to deal with the situation.
Here is what happened, by the way:
Quote:Phoebe: You know, we'd been more than happy to give you a new face once you tell us where Ramona is.
Rick: What the hell. You're my leverage now anyway. She's locked in a tank under the pumping station.
Phoebe: How do we know you're telling the truth?
Rick: You don't. Now, my face. Make it different. Heartbreaking, charming, young.
(Phoebe gets an idea.)
Phoebe: You know, I'm thinking maybe you should use our nephew for inspiration.
Paige: "Who you were, you're now another, take the face of Wyatt's brother."
(Rick turns into Chris. He looks in the mirror.)
Chris: Yeah, I like it. This'll work.
Paige: Pheebs, watch out, this could get messy. (Phoebe and Paige hide behind a wall. Three Scabbar demons appear in the room. Rick shoots at them but doesn't harm them. They spit the green acid goo at Rick which melts him to nothing. The demons disappear. Phoebe and Paige come out from behind the wall.) You okay?
Reading this passage nauseated me. It was Phoebe who got the idea to set Rick up to be killed by the demons. And to make matters worse, Rick had already told her where the hostage was. Yet, she still decided to set him up to be killed. And Paige went along without even thinking about what they were doing. The two had allowed their penchant to play judge, jury and executioner to get the best of them, when they had other options.
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 11, 2006 16:15:46 GMT -5
vandergraafk shot back:
Golly, so many comments! Thanks for the transcript because it proves my point. First, it was Phoebe, not Paige, who suggested giving Rick Chris's visage, since someone above wanted to ascribe this to Paige. Second, thanks for confirming that Paige was initially dumbstruck upon hearing Phoebe's suggestion. But, now for the main points!
The transcript clearly demonstrates that neither Phoebe nor Paige have any assurance that Rick is telling the truth. Had Piper been there, maybe she could have frozen the action and the sisters could have cast the truth spell. This does not seem to be a spell that Paige has memorized by heart like the sight unseen spell she frequently casts to clean up messes. They don't have any assurance that what Rick has said is true. Hence, they are forced to improvise, to buy time if you will.
Now, what could they have done? By giving in to Rick's demand, they will at least get him off their backs, or so they might believe. Who knows? Maybe Rick will make an additional demand or two. Think of the bank holdup in Season 8.
Second, neither Phoebe nor Paige has any direct way of knowing that the Scabber Demons will immediately attack. Chris has been chased by these guys all episode. They have already seen the demons pop up unexpectedly in the attic. Could it be that giving in to Rick's demand, will allow the sisters to gain time to a) scry for Ramona by using some personal item that we hope Phoebe has access to and b) reverse the glamming of Rick in order to turn him over to Darryl?
I am just absolutely baffled that anyone could argue that Paige and Phoebe's actions were "pre-meditated". Somebody needs to review criminal law. If you insist on holding any of the sisters accountable, then it could only be Phoebe. She directly participated in criminal facilitation as her actions in visiting the jail and posing as a lawyer allowed Rick to break free. One could even argue that her actions constituted "reckless endangerment" because it ultimately led to injuries to the armored guards and death to Rick. But, wait: who would ever know that Phoebe had done these things? She was disguised and she was acting as an immature adolescent.
Cringe all you will, but at least analyze the evidence.
A statement that led to this rebuke by Xenith:
Dude, try taking your own advice!
PAIGE: Phoebs, watch out. This could get messy.
(PAIGE runs to take cover behind the wall. PHOEBE also hides behind the wall near her for cover.)
THAT is BEFORE the Scabbard demons appear! So what kind of explanation do you have for the two Charmed Ones ducking for cover and saying that things could get "messy" PRIOR to the attack? (Sure you could argue that they were hiding from the gun, although really if Rick was going to shoot them he probably would have done it when she ran... Being held at gunpoint also isn't usually described as "things could get messy".) There is no question about it that they are expecting the Scabbar demons to attack and kill Rick.
In addition to not orbing the gun, Paige also makes no attempt to orb the "icky stuff" like she HAD thought to do during the last Scabbar attack. So in that little bit of time that passed between attacks she forgot how to deal with a Scabbar demon? Right...
And can you explain to me why choosing Chris's face would actually help them stall for any more time that just any random face if not for the Scabbar demons? (Which again there was PLENTY of time for them to try and make ANY effort at all to try and save Rick if they were going to, since he even has time to turn around, shoot at two Scabbars, and to realize that his shots didn't kill them...)
Furthermore: PAIGE: You know you had to, right? PHOEBE: I know
If the Scabbar demon attack was a big surprise and not planned then what exactly is the "HAD TO"?
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 11, 2006 16:17:30 GMT -5
vandergraafk replied:
Looks like I'm in deep doo-doo! Well, I could try a Bill Clinton and argue that could could mean maybe or maybe not. But, that's a cop out! I'd rather argue that it is a weakness of the episode. Why should Paige make such a statement? Does she know something that the rest of us don't know? And how would she know that? As the Scabbar demons have popped in and out without warning, why should we just simply accept that Paige is right. Oh, because look what happened next! They do pop up and splatter icky stuff everywhere.
And, since you might know the answer to this better than me, we never really find out how to vanquish these guys, right? I mean when Paige sends the icky stuff back at them and blows one of them up (seemingly), why is it that two of them appear again in the finale? Do Scabbar demons only work in pairs?
I have a problem with the omniscience that is required of the characters. Nowhere in Charmedverse has anyone ever been shown to be omniscient. Not even the Angel of Destiny in Forever Charmed. Yet, suddenly Paige not only knows for a certain that granting Rick's wish will lead to a Scabbar attack, but that it will happen right away. That's poor writing!
Making Rick into Chris's face could buy them more time - if the writers hadn't screwed up this scene - because from what we know they are hot on the trail of Chris and Chris alone, but we've been given no reason to assume that they are about to close in on Chris. My gosh, Chris has time to go to the restaurant and talk with Grandpa after he has time to shower and shave. These Scabbar demons sure take their time!
I mean this episode - as much as I like it - has its weak moments. For starters, it is really awkward that Chris plops in and asks whether the Book of Shadows is still in the attic. Somebody should have sent that to re-write. Just as the final scene should have gone into re-write. In between, it's pretty cool, except how does Todd manage to get Phoebe's cell phone number. That's a stretch, too! Nowhere are we shown Phoebe giving Todd her cell phone number. Is it listed in the Warlocks guide to San Francisco? Did he call the Bay Mirror? Did he dial demon 411?
Please don't get me wrong. I am making fun, but this is a key moment in the whole story. Todd calls, his wife grabs the phone, and Phoebe goes over the deep end and becomes Freebe or is it just Freaky Phoebe!
I'll grant you this. The scene - as fully written - does give ammunition to those who would hold Phoebe accountable. I guess Paige is guilty, too, since she gives tacit consent. But, as others have pointed out, the scene is a mess. Why doesn't Paige orb the gun away? Why doesn't Paige orb Rick away to some out of the way place to give them time to figure this out? Besides, nobody's going to believe Rick prattling on about witches. He's a three-striker.
So what, then, is the argument? Given the scenario as it was unfolding, a situation requiring improvisation was being set up. If it had followed a logical path, then the sisters could have bought some time to set the hostage free. And a different outcome would have been possible. Heck, they might not even have had to change Rick's face at all, but doing so does take them off the real Chris's tail. Or, will it? But, the idea that this scene as written clearly demonstrates Phoebe's guilt and/or Paige's rests upon a shaky foundation.
Just re-read the comments above. Pre-meditation. Judge and jury and executioner, too. Whoa! If you want to make this Morality Bites, Too!, then I would sooner focus on the escape of Rick and Phoebe's direct role in that. To definitively argue guilt based on a lousy - but cute - ending is beyond me!
P.S. If you read my comments again, carefully, I point out that the transcript supports exactly the points I have made. I do not use the transcript beyond the set up. The reason I have not was just made above. I do not believe what came next was a logical consequence of the antecedent. Cute, yes. But, logical, no! Thus, you may choose to continue with the transcript if you will, but my comments thereafter referred only to speculation, not to the actual events as the writers (wrongly) chose to resolve this situation. This is what literary criticism is all about!
P.S.S. Now, I know you are going to come back and state that I indicated above that Paige had no way of directly knowing that a Scabbar attack was directly imminent. Your citation of the transcript would seem to contradict that. "Take cover. This could get messy!" Which it does, but my comment is derived from an analysis of where exactly Paige could possibly have gotten this information from? She doesn't know an attack is imminent, nor could she have known! It doesn't make any sense at all!
Now, Morality Bites does not suffer from these plot deficiencies. Thus, we can see clearly see why the sisters cannot punish the guilty. Written better, maybe Hyde School Reunion could have extended such a discussion. But, its flaws prevent that from happening.
Then, vandergraafk concluded with the following:
No amount of pulling of threads is going to rescuse the poor plot development in this story. The Scabbar's attack Chris in the attic after he searches for the alleged "cloaking spell". Didn't cloak much, did it?
Second, you can write all you wish about the actions of Paige after Rick has been glammed. None of these actions logically follow from the preceding action. Where does Paige get her inside info. She is not omniscient. It's at best a guess, an extremely lucky guess. Or else, she dialed demon 411, as Todd perhaps did, to get Phoebe's cell phone number.
Just because a dramatic event was resolved means it was a) a logical resolution of the situation, b) the best resolution of the situation, or c) an acceptable resolution of the situation. It could just be way off the wall and rely on information that the characters do not have access to or cannot have access to. If it's the latter, then it's poor writing indeed. My contention is that the resolution that all of you focus on is irrelevant in so far that it is merely the product of poor plot resolution. Others have offered alternate resolutions, ones that would have avoided Rick's dying at the hands of the Scabbars and allowed Ramona to be rescued.
And, as I pointed out above, at critical moments in this whole plot, which I still enjoy there are poor plot points. Certainly, Todd and the phone number is the most crucial since it drives the entire plot. If he doesn't call her, she doesn't revert to Freebe. Now, had they had Ramona call Phoebe, perhaps she had gotten the number during the whole autograph scenario, then perhaps she could have given it to Todd or called Phoebe to find out what had happened. We could then imagine Todd's wife grabbing the phone from Ramona to set in motion this entire chain of events.
So, why are we even discussing this? Well, because some fans wish to use this as a way to find guilt in both Phoebe's and Paige's actions. For me, that's a non-starter because it's an illogical resolution to the scenario. Resolve it appropriately and maybe none of this happens.
If you still wish to use this as a morality play, then go back to the freeing of Rick from jail. It is criminal facilitation at worst, and probably reckless endangerment since it leads eventually to the injuries to the armored guards.
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 11, 2006 16:21:05 GMT -5
But, the discussion was not yet over:
Xenith replied:
Phone # Fanwank:
Todd is a lawyer, and heck he himself said what he does is "barely" legal. If you are willing to skirt the law a little it's VERY easy to get a hold of all kinds of stuff like home & cell phone numbers... (Heck there are even websites that will do it in only a few hours for a big fee, and how they are allowed to violate people's right to privacy in such a public place without retribution, don't even want to know...)
And Todd does seem to still have a thing for Phoebe, from the way he defends her to Paula, how he says he reads everything she writes, how he tells her on the phone "The only reason I came to this thing was because of you, hoping I'd see you again.", and finally how he in no way resists her kiss or even makes to apologize prior to Phoebe casting a spell on him and the others. I could definitely see him using some of his contacts to find out stuff about her like her phone number...
Still, vandergraafk refused to yield:
As for Todd's bottom-feeding tendencies, perhaps. But, now you - the viewer - are having to supply an answer to a question that drives the episode and one the writers should have not left up to idle speculation.
And your speculation does make sense, but does not fit into the time line. He doesn't have a couple of hours to get a hold of her number. 45 minutes max, depending on where the reunion was held. But, then Charmed is never very good at explaining how the sisters move about across the City. I've driven plenty of times in San Francisco and traffic is awful most times of the day except early Sunday morning around 7 am. But, let's assume that Paige orbed Phoebe home. She still has to get back to the party, which is still in its middle stage apparently judging from the number of partygoers still attending.
In short, this episode is riven with weak plot devices. My ultimate point is that there are too many shaky bits in this episode to allow it to be used as a morality play.
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 11, 2006 16:23:07 GMT -5
Another fan tried to put some closure on the issue by commenting as follows:
I agree that the Hyde School Reunion "fix" could have definately been better. IE: Paige orbs the gun Phoebe does a few kicks and punches to knock him down/out. They get Piper (or not) and find the girl Rick had taken hostage and free her. Take a tied up Rick to Daryll and then deal with the Scabber demons afterwards. But I (having seen the episode once) see it this way... Phoebe and Paige in a big hurry to get away from Rick out of fear from the gun he has pointed at them, exposure to magic, and finding the missing girl; come up with a quick and not so wise plan to give Rick Chris' face which keeps them from having to fight the Scabber demons and having to deal further with Rick. (Also I think the writers were dealing with a time issue in having to make the solution quick.) But I also think there should have been some kind of punishment. If not from the Elders, then from the universe for their actions. Their decision was made in haste and cost someone their life. It was not an accident, it was purposefully done. If the punishment couldn't be dealt to them in the time remaining in this episode it could have been carried over to the next. IE: Paige and Phoebe both glamor (not by their power and can't undo the magic) into Chris look-a-likes and having to fend off Scabbers demons at every turn. It would satisfy the viewers more then what we were given and also remind the girls (and the writers) that it is not their job to punish but to defend. I also see that the girls were thinking of their solution as them defending Chris from the demons as well as defending themselves and the hostage from Rick. But as I said before there were better ways to handle it. Also I think Paige simply suspected the Scabber demons to attack when they did. She didn't "know". If the Scabber demons hadn't shown up just then she would have felt foolish and tried something new. But as the writers knew the demons would show up when they did and didn't want to have to have the girls clothes dry cleaned, because it would take more from the budget which would then lead to them having to write less special F/X in future episodes, they wrote them as ducking for cover.
Alas, there were some comments still forthcoming, especially after the issue of inside info was questioned. vandergraafk replied:
Inside info in this case would consist of knowing not just the method and lethality of the attack (which, as you indicate Paige was well aware of), but also the timing. True, she could suspect that an attack could come at any time without any advance warning. But, instructing Phoebe to take cover presupposes knowledge of when and where, information she could not be privy to. That's why there a problem here!
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Post by vandergraafk on Nov 14, 2006 18:56:19 GMT -5
After a brief hiatus, the issue arose once again in the Charmed Cafe. It all started rather innocently with a discussion of Agent Brody and the Avatars. Here are excerpts of the argument (again).
Ljones (with whom I agreed on this point made the following comment): Brody turned out to be right about the Avatars. They proved to be a danger to the world.
Elder replied:
That's from a non avatar viewpoint. The avatars believed what they were doing was right and not a dnager at all. How is it ever a danger to rid the world of evil?
To which I rather offhandedly replied:
Uh, when you kill innocent people simply because they are obstreperous or intransigent!
Which prompted Elder to pose the simple question:
Something to think about:
In Hyde school reunion Chris tells Victor that the two were together a lot in the future. However, now that the future changed (at whatever point), does that change the Chris/Victor relationship as well? Sure they are still close (being as they are the same family) but is there a chance they are not as close?
I guess what I'm trying to say is: How can changing one event not alter the whole landscape of the future? If you change one event, the whole thing should change, right?
Which led me to comment as follows:
I'm not sure I follow your logic entirely, but here goes. Victor and Chris were drawn closer together because of the Event: the death of Piper when Chris was 12 years old. Since Piper does not die, the necessity for Victor and Chris to bond together so closely has been reduced. They may choose to bond together closely for entirely different reasons. We just don't know.
What we don't know is why Piper avoids death when Chris is 12. Nothing in the "ultimate" battle suggests that there is a threat out there which will do in Piper. Likewise, it has been suggested and repeated again in Triquetra that Phoebe will die at the hands of a demon when she is very old. Why? Because in the Three Faces of Phoebe we learn this. Again, haven't future events - as well as present events - changed the future? Who knows what will transpire?
Maybe a part of Morality Bites will come true, perhaps the future really is that depicted in Forever Charmed. The only thing we can say for certain is that apparently the demonic threat has been diminished after the ultimate battle. Thus, it is less likely that Piper will die or even that Phoebe - old Phoebe - will die, a premature death.
Uh, oh. I mentioned Morality Bites. Oh, vandergraafk, what have you unleashed?
Ljones took a different line of attack on Elder's avatar point of view:
Quote:That's from a non avatar viewpoint. The avatars believed what they were doing was right and not a dnager at all. How is it ever a danger to rid the world of evil?
Because it's against the natural law. It is possible that there is a reason why God allowed duality of nature in this world.
Also . . . a lot of evil have committed by those who believed they were doing right. Adolf Hitler was one of them .
Which I just couldn't resist rejecting:
I am very surprised that this offhand remark has gotten such play. Moral relativity, aka from an Avatar point of view, is completely baseless in this instance. I, for one, cannot condone the liquidation of human beings simply because they "refuse" to cooperate in a world beyond good and evil. Re-visit Extreme Makeover: World Edition and examine the cases of those eliminated by the Avatars. I can find no moral system that can explain away such obvious violations of human rights.
Now, if you are advocating an amoral standpoint or arguing from the point of view that might makes right, well then I'm afraid you've lost me. I prefer civilized society over a jungle atmosphere. Hitler did not believe he was right. That is not even a question he would have asked himself. For Hitler, he viewed other nations, religions and races as beneath his idealized Aryan community. Any and all individuals occupying a rung beneath the Aryan rulers were subject to liquidation. I suppose some people actually need to see the family trees that were mandated during the german period (in order to prove a family free of Jewish influence) in order to understand the degree to which the Nazis went to bring about their purified community. (I've seen such a tree and it sends a chill up my spine.)
Don't just think, though, that this was just some foolish game invented by Germans. In the American South, they played a similar game with respect to the degree of whiteness.
On the other hand, I cannot advocate the opposite point of view, namely, that there is an eternal yin and yang to the battle between good and evil. Yes, that's the position espoused by Gideon and the Elders. It is also a view deplored by the Avatars who claim theirs is a better way (beyond Good and evil).
First of all, I cannot simply accept that the balance between good and evil has remained static over the centuries. There has been a positive tilt towards good. In fact, prior to the 2oth century, I would not have had any opportunity to express my views in this manner. I would not have had the educational opportunities both in this country and Germany to challenge received wisdom and develop my own moral and intellectual compass. Nor would I have mastered the technology that allows me to express my views in this wonderfully easy way. The sons and daughters of the working classes simply did not have the opportunities that many have now. So, yes: on balance, progress has been made. Is it linear and constantly rising? Hardly!
At the same time that new avenues of expression have manifested themselves, I have watched the deterioration in political discussion in this country. If only Americans could see the shambles that their "democracy" has become. The Carter center just oversaw the elections in Nicaragua. Unfortunately, the Carter center would decline to oversee Americans elections because the United States does not meet the criteria for fair and open elections: uniform voting requirements throughout the country, open and free access to the media (money matters), competititve elections (gerrymandering thwarts this very nicely). Yet, I am very proud of the gains that my own country - Germany - has made. Who could ever have imagined that a former sponti (street anarchist), guilty of throwing cobblestones at riot police and even punching one perhaps, could one day rise to become German foreign minister (Joschka Fischer).
Have fun on election day. Try to do your civic duty to the best of your ability. At least, the Avatars are not in charge yet, though the Bushidos would love to have their powers!
Now, some of you are probably wondering what any of this had to do with Hyde School Reunion. Ah, but ljones wasn't finished with the avatars yet. Check out her comment:
That's from a non avatar viewpoint. The avatars believed what they were doing was right and not a dnager at all. How is it ever a danger to rid the world of evil?
Look at what Phoebe and Paige had done to Phoebe's ex-classmate, Rick, in "Hyde School Reunion". They probably thought that their actions were justified. Rick was a convict and had left someone to die in order to coerce the sisters into helping him evade the law. Being used to acting as judge, jury and executioners while killing demons and warlocks, Phoebe and Paige thought they had every other right to do the same to Rick. And the ironic thing is that they ended up setting up the murder of someone they could have easily arranged to turn in to the law . . . with no memory of his recent experiences of Phoebe.
I think that the Charmed Ones, as characters, became victims of their success. And in this post-9/11 age, I've noticed that many have grown to believe that using violence to fight violence and/or evil, is necessary to make the world a better place. They are so concerned with making their external circumstances better that they never consider the possibility on how such actions could affect their internal state or their characters. It seemed to be a mistake that many humans commit.
But ljones wasn't quite finished:
Elder, you might also want to consider that some fans don't like to consider the possibility that the lead characters of their favorite shows are capable of being very flawed. I've seen this reaction in regard to some of the Halliwells' actions on CHARMED. I've also seen this on BUFFY. Most fans of SMALLVILLE want to dump the blame for the Clark/Lana breakup on Lana, despite the fact that Clark had lied to her on many occasions.
It's called hypocricy and as much as I don't want to say this . . . it's a very human trait. We've all been guilty of this, one way or the other. Probably without even realizing it.
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Post by vandergraafk on Nov 14, 2006 19:10:34 GMT -5
vandergraafk now pulled out all stops:
Why do I get the sneaking suspicion that I am being indirectly targeted here since I am a major "fan"? I don't have any problem with my characters being flawed. I just don't expect them to act or behave stupidly. Character flaws are vital in so far as they give depth and credibility to a character. Of course, depending on the story line, flaws can lead to certain problems arising.
Whether these story lines are adequately developed depends on the aims of the writers. Do they want low-brow entertainment? Or, are they trying to emulate some of the world's greatest writers? Given the drift of all of the Charmed books, as well as the show, I imagine that none of the writers is trying to emulate Dostoyevsky. Could they? Sure, why not? Serious writers have tackled the world of magical fiction and done so well.
Maybe that's what I should do. Take the characters that I love and attempt to write serious fiction with the characters. That would be fun. Of course, I would start with Paige. She's a bit of a free spirit. It has gotten her into trouble countless times. Imagine the possibilities.
What I think you object to is the fact that characters are not held accountable. To a very limited extent, Phoebe was held accountable in Crimes and Witch-Demeanors. I know this is not good enough for certain of our contributors. They demand even greater accoutability.
Then, again, most TV shows are fantastic in so far as they are removed from reality. WORK is a four-letter word. Yet, how few of our characters struggle to make ends meet and have to deal with jobs that suck. Charmed is not immune to this. How do the sisters make ends meet? With a club, P3? Most clubs and restaurants fail one or two years after opening. P3 almost did, too! Paige is hardly ever at her job with South Bay Social Services. Yet, when is she ever reprimanded? Worse: how come she gets away with talking back to her boss, Bob Cowan? I doubt that she's that invaluable an employee. And, Phoebe: well, Phoebe never ever seems to be at work. Yet, she practically runs the newspaper. (I guess sleeping with the owner has its rewards.)
Don't get me wrong. I'm not putting Charmed down as a result. But, if accountability is your beef, then remember that you're dealing with a world of fantasy. Unfortunately, the world of fantasy seems to permeate everyday life more and more. How many overpaid CEOs are ever held accountable? Hey, even Kenny Boy got off the hook by dying? There is a lot of justice denied. Why should Charmed be singled out for creating a world of fantasy where the do-gooders apparently can get away with infractions left and right! There's plenty of real world issues that can be dealt with.
This long comment prompted Lisa M to assert the following:
About character flaws: There's a big difference between characters having flaws--which enhance the characters--and having the characters murder someone, which is despicable unless it's self defense or they are protecting someone else and there is no other way. The worst part about Phoebe and Paige killing Rick in Hyde School Reunion is that Phoebe had supposedly learned not to punish the guilty (or kill humans) in Morality Bites. It was if that lesson was completely forgotton in Hyde School. Also, in an earlier season they had to kill a human (that doctor that stole their powers--can't remember the name of the episode, but Prue was in it) in self defense, and they felt bad about it. They had absolutely no remorse for killing a human being in Hyde School. It was like their humanity and morality went out the window.
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Post by vandergraafk on Nov 14, 2006 19:13:37 GMT -5
Now, it all comes full circle:
vandergraafk replied:
As the liquidation of Rick came at the end of Hyde School Reunion and there was hardly anytime left for digesting what had happened, I would scarcely say that the girls show no remorse. We don't know. This episode, especially the final scene, is horribly written. Deus ex machina, Paige knows the Scaber demons will attack imminently. She can't possibly know this for certain. None of the scabbard demon attacks was predicted or predictable in earlier scenes in the show. So, why now? As for whether this constituted murder, we've had this discussion. None of the arguments seem compelling. Rick was given what he demanded. Without acceding to those demands, Phoebe was not going to get the hostage back. You call it murder. I call it a tough choice, one where the perpetrator got what he deserved.
This, of course, led to Elder's following comment:
As the liquidation of Rick came at the end of Hyde School Reunion and there was hardly anytime left for digesting what had happened, I would scarcely say that the girls show no remorse. We don't know. This episode, especially the final scene, is horribly written. Deus ex machina, Paige knows the scabbard demons will attack imminently. She can't possibly know this for certain. None of the scabbard demon attacks was predicted or predictable in earlier scenes in the show. So, why now? As for whether this constituted murder, we've had this discussion. None of the arguments seem compelling. Rick was given what he demanded. Without acceding to those demands, Phoebe was not going to get the hostage back. You call it murder. I call it a tough choice, one where the perpetrator got what he deserved.
I have debated the whole Rick theory plenty of times and it makes sense to do what they did. He knew magic existed, and what good does it do to orb the gun away when the wacko (who knows about the magical world) still would be around? As for the demons showing up...they probably sensed Chris-Rick and showed up. They don't bother asking if he's Chris since that who he looks like.
And Triad chimed in:
As the liquidation of Rick came at the end of Hyde School Reunion and there was hardly anytime left for digesting what had happened, I would scarcely say that the girls show no remorse. We don't know. This episode, especially the final scene, is horribly written. Deus ex machina, Paige knows the scabbard demons will attack imminently. She can't possibly know this for certain. None of the scabbard demon attacks was predicted or predictable in earlier scenes in the show. So, why now? As for whether this constituted murder, we've had this discussion. None of the arguments seem compelling. Rick was given what he demanded. Without acceding to those demands, Phoebe was not going to get the hostage back. You call it murder. I call it a tough choice, one where the perpetrator got what he deserved.
I have debated the whole Rick theory plenty of times and it makes sense to do what they did. He knew magic existed, and what good does it do to orb the gun away when the wacko (who knows about the magical world) still would be around? As for the demons showing up...they probably sensed Chris-Rick and showed up. They don't bother asking if he's Chris since that who he looks like.
But there are so many other options. Like a memory spell, summoning the cleaners, using Leo's memory dust etc etc... Remember back to Marality Bites? Protect the innocents but don't punish the Gulity. To which vandergraafk gave this (final?) reply:
First, let's say that I am well aware of Morality Bites. Second, I don't think the two (Hyde School Reunion and Morality Bites) are directly comparable. For, in Morality Bites, Phoebe exacted her own revenge on Cal Greene. Her actions directly caused him great harm. She used her magic to punish someone she thought was guilty of some criminal action.
In Hyde School Reunion, try as you might you CANNOT show that a direct action of Phoebe's (or Paige's - for that matter) led to harm to someone she thought guilty of some criminal action. The key word here is direct as in direct action. Whatever happened to Rick was the indirect result of fulfilling a request that Rick made as the price for possibly telling Phoebe where the hostage was being kept. In so far as Phoebe complied with Rick's request, she had no way of knowing for a certainty that Rick would even release the hostage. Nor could she know that the Scaber demons would immediately attack. She certainly knew - as would Paige - that if the Scaber demons attacked, then Rick would be toast (or slime), assuming the Scaber demons could not sense the imposter. (On this point, let me argue that apparently the Scaber demons could detect deception. They were onto Chris because he had tried to infiltrate into their ranks and disguise himself as a Scaber. Unsuccessfully, I might add, but we have no way of knowing how long it took for the Scaber demons to figure this out.)
Now, the fact that Paige basically says incoming proves nothing. It is a major, major plot flaw. This lame plot device presumes knowledge that Paige cannot know. Nowhere in this episode was anyone able to predict an impending Scaber attack. Indeed, when Paige was scrying for Phoebe, she and Chris (and Piper and Victor) were all caught unawares. This led to the scrying location, as well as the scrying crystal, to be obliterated by Scaber slime.
Second, if Paige knew for a certainty that an attack was imminent, then why couldn't the sisters set a trap for the Scabers. Paige already knew that by deflecting the "icky" stuff, she could waste a Scaber. (Piper could not blow them up, as the Scaber demons seemed to relish the blasting force.)
Third, the Scabers had plenty of time to attack Chris at the restaurant or on the porch while sharing a cigar with Victor. Chris was certainly taking a chance. His luck finally ran out in the attic. Thereafter, he was crystal protected, I believe.
Morality Bites has none of these problems. In fact, we do not even see Cal Greene being punished. We just have it on record that Phoebe did as was described. She decided to become judge, jury and executioner of someone who for all we know could have been innocent. There's no plot device problem. There's no problem with omniscience. There are none of the fatal flaws that Hyde School Reunion has.
Please, please, please do not view this as an exculpation of the sisters' behavior. I agree with those who say that Paige ought to have orbed the shotgun away. A defenseless Rick, then, could have been turned over to the police (Darryl). Yet, that would have required a quick-minded Paige to call for the shotgun right away. On this point, I am reminded of Forever Charmed when during the "real" ultimate battle Piper has to remind Paige to orb the ring away from Christy. Why couldn't Paige have thought of this on her own? I am not suggesting that Paige is dumb or dimwitted. It's just that sometimes in the fog of a confrontation she - like most of us - does not see things with utmost clarity.
For Elder's complaint that orbing the shotgun away would have solved nothing since Rick knew about the existence of magic, there are two comments to be made. First, who in the SFPD is going to believe the rantings of a third-striker persumably trying to blame magic for what happened with the heist of the cash transport vehicle or the kidnapping of Phoebe's chum? Second, couldn't the girls have used a bit of memory dust on Rick before turning him over to Darryl? I'm sorry. Orbing away the gun was the best solution and a logical resolution to this problem. And, yes, Phoebe should have suggested it to Paige to clear up the fog of battle issue.
Second, I have already asserted elsewhere that one of the interesting things that we (as fans and as keepers of the Charmed universe) could do is imagine a Season 9 or a post-demon centered life for the Charmed Ones where they have to deal with the consequences of their actions, to re-examine whether they handled a given situation in the best way possible. Perhaps this could have been incorporated into the Magic School curriculum. Lord knows there are many, many instances where the sisters took unnecessary risks and whose actions may have caused great harm. Indeed, wasn't this one of the main selling points that Christy used on Billie, i.e., that the Charmed Ones were not acting in accord with the Greater Good?
Consider this, for example. Do you think it was appropriate for Prue to swish Alice out of the manor after the latter broke in? I don't and I don't want to justify Prue's behavior, especially as that led to Alice getting really pissed off, taking aim at Piper, making an incredibly accurate shot from a ridiculous position with laughable crowd control by SFPD, and presumably tried for murder (if time had been reversed).
I could go on and on with these examples. I just don't find Hyde School Reunion's final scene with Rick compelling evidence at all of the sisters somehow betraying their Wiccan oath. It's a poor, poor resolution to a plot filled with inconsistencies and incongruencies. (How does Paige undo the spell that Phoebe has cast on the senior class when many of them presumably fled the police raid? Should we just accept on faith that Paige was miraculously able to do this without casting a reversal of time spell? I'm sorry but there's not enough memory dust to go around to clean up that mess!)
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