WHICH CHRIS IS IT ANYWAY?

[vandergraafk]

Time loops apparently cause immense headaches especially when Chris is involved. Which Chris has to save Paige and prevent destruction of the Elders at the hands of the Titans? Could it be Chris from an alternative time line? Or, must it be the Chris from the main time line?

Why this gets confusing derives from the fact that the Chris who goes back to save Paige is coming from the main time line, a time line he will indelibly alter by saving her life and protecting the Elders. Once he accomplishes this, there emerges a new main time line. Is this the saccharine future of Forever Charmed? Or, is it something completely different?

[vandergraafk]

In the Charmed Cafe, Elder created a new thread "Chris Dies". As expected, this thread stoked fires anew. At first, I tried to be dismissive and then warned of the consequences.

"Are we back to this again? Chris dies, of course. This story arc was abruptly terminated and never satisfactorily resolved. Those who suggest that he faded away because his timelime was altered might have a point if they could explain what event caused him to fade away. Who changed the main time line of the Halliwell's?

Since no one was back in the past - other than Chris - that we know about, who could have altered his time line? If he does an action that results in his death, that eliminates his future. And, it changes whatever future time line he was associated with. It cannot change the main time line since we are witnessing it as it unfolds."

[vandergraafk]

Whitelightertony sooned chimed in:

"For him Gideon still murdered his son and he wanted revenge for this and started his hunt for Gideon completely controlled by his emotions.

Leo was also probably afraid that Gideon would come after Wyatt and unborn baby Chris.

Quote: Those who suggest that he faded away because his timelime was altered might have a point if they could explain what event caused him to fade away. Who changed the main time line of the Halliwell's?

Since no one was back in the past - other than Chris - that we know about, who could have altered his time line? If he does an action that results in his death, that eliminates his future. And, it changes whatever future time line he was associated with. It cannot change the main time line since we are witnessing it as it unfolds.

The "fade away" of Future Chris could be due to the reality that he wasn't supposed to exist in that past time period to begin with.

Future Chris initiated the action (time-traveling) that resulted in his death, so his death caused the alternate future timeline (as seen in "Chris Crossed") to subside as present-day baby Chris was born."

Of course, I had to respond:

"Now, whitelightertony, we're going to have this massive discussion again. And everyone's head will hurt. Why should we assume that the only future reality is the one depicted in Chris Crossed? Let's see the future Wyatt who comes back in Imaginary Fiends then morphs into an evil future Wyatt as a result of the imaginary fiend is not the evil Wyatt future of Chris Crossed. Indeed, the Book of Three, Volume 2 tries to lay out all of these future scenarios.

Now, let's see what Chris has changed. He saved Paige and perhaps Phoebe from death in Oh My Goddess Part 1. That changed A future, but it didn't change it enough. As I've argued elsewhere, Chris has probably saved Paige's life a bunch of times, as he tries to figure out how to avert the reality of Chris Crossed. Maybe he never does, but his presence alerted the Charmed Ones that Wyatt's tremendous power does pose a threat. Or, maybe the Ultimate Battle so traumatizes Wyatt that when he gets older he is not the saccharine sweet son we see in Forever Charmed, but someone who vows revenge."

[vandergraafk]

This led to whitelightertony's parsing of my comments:

"Quote: Of course, he can be sent back to his time. Yes, it will be an altered future. So what? There will be gaps, just as Cole experienced in his alternative reality. Again, so what?

Do you believe that when Chris faded away at the end of IABBBBWP2, that he was indeed being sent back to his own time?

Quote: Now, whitelightertony, we're going to have this massive discussion again. And everyone's head will hurt. Why should we assume that the only future reality is the one depicted in Chris Crossed?

I never said it was. Of course there can be other alternate future realities. But obviously, the one depicted in "Chris Crossed" was an altered version of the future reality that Future Chris had originally traveled from.

Quote: Let's see the future Wyatt who comes back in Imaginary Fiends then morphs into an evil future Wyatt as a result of the imaginary fiend is not the evil Wyatt future of Chris Crossed.

That's because the Future Wyatt seen in "Imaginary Friends" was affected by changes to the present-day timeline...and those changes were irrelevant to the Alternate Future Wyatt from "Chris Crossed."

Quote: Now, let's see what Chris has changed. He saved Paige and perhaps Phoebe from death in Oh My Goddess Part 1. That changed A future, but it didn't change it enough. As I've argued elsewhere, Chris has probably saved Paige's life a bunch of times, as he tries to figure out how to avert the reality of Chris Crossed. Maybe he never does, but his presence alerted the Charmed Ones that Wyatt's tremendous power does pose a threat.

If he never averts the reality of "Chris Crossed," then how do you explain the version of Future Wyatt seen in "Forever Charmed"?

And do you believe that Future Chris had made multiple time travel journeys on other occasions (where he tried to save Paige), but he failed to retain all of those memories?

Quote: Or, maybe the Ultimate Battle so traumatizes Wyatt that when he gets older he is not the saccharine sweet son we see in Forever Charmed, but someone who vows revenge.

Then wouldn't Future Wyatt have been transformed in front of everyone's eyes in "Forever Charmed," the same way he was in "Imaginary Friends"?

My initial response was as follows:

"First, I am only speculating about possible scenarios. Post traumatic stress disorder does not show up right away. Thus, baby Wyatt might not show any outward sign of trauma immediately during Forever Charmed. Maybe it took years to develop.

Second, I've argued that Chris has made at least 2 travels back to save Paige. The first time both Paige and Phoebe turn to stone. Given that knowledge, when he goes back a second time, he knows enough to warn Phoebe. He may even have traveled a third time when he realizes that saving the Elders was not enough to prevent Chris Crossed from happening. Who knows how many times he traveled into the past before he figures out which demons to attack?

When I wrote that he can be sent back to his future, I thought I had made it clear that he cannot do this himself if he is already DEAD! His vanishing at the end of It's a BAD, BAD, BAD world is simply a mistake. There's no logical reason for it to occur.

Now, if Paige can go back and rescue him before Gideon does him in and sends him back to an altered future, then he will be safe and back in some future time where he won't know all the precise details, as Cole did not in his alternative reality. He will know enough to be able to integrate himself into that new future.

Again, I think you missed the point with respect to Imaginary Fiends. That episode illustrates yet another evil Wyatt scenario from the future that is not simply Chris Crossed. Charmed plays with multiple future scenarios that are accounted for in the Book of Three Volume 2."

These comments were subject to further parsing.

Quote: First, I am only speculating about possible scenarios. Post traumatic stress disorder does not show up right away. Thus, baby Wyatt might not show any outward sign of trauma immediately during Forever Charmed. Maybe it took years to develop.

"But we never see any evidence of Future Wyatt becoming evil, when he and Future Chris time-travel in "Forever Charmed."

Quote: Second, I've argued that Chris has made at least 2 travels back to save Paige. The first time both Paige and Phoebe turn to stone. Given that knowledge, when he goes back a second time, he knows enough to warn Phoebe. He may even have traveled a third time when he realizes that saving the Elders was not enough to prevent Chris Crossed from happening. Who knows how many times he traveled into the past before he figures out which demons to attack?

Isn't it possible that, before time-traveling to actually save Paige, Chris only knows secondhand about Paige and Phoebe being turned to stone, due to family accounts? By the time Piper managed to free his Auntie Phoebe from her stone prison, his Auntie Paige has been vanquished/obliterated by Meta. Why would Future Chris have had to actually made a time travel journey to witness Paige's death firsthand?

Quote: When I wrote that he can be sent back to his future, I thought I had made it clear that he cannot do this himself if he is already DEAD! His vanishing at the end of It's a BAD, BAD, BAD world is simply a mistake. There's no logical reason for it to occur.

Well, it did occur. There has to be a reason why it happened within the context of the Charmedverse, even if it's something as simple as Future Chris not truly belonging in the past, and the universe "course-correcting" itself after Future Chris died from Gideon's stab wound.

Quote: Now, if Paige can go back and rescue him before Gideon does him in and sends him back to an altered future, then he will be safe and back in some future time where he won't know all the precise details, as Cole did not in his alternative reality. He will know enough to be able to integrate himself into that new future.

But wouldn't he be coexisting with a doppelganger of himself? - - the present-day Chris who was born at the end of Season 6? Unless you're suggesting that Paige rescues Future Chris and then sends/transplants him back into an alternate future reality that will remain separate and divergent from the forthcoming chain of events that Paige herself will come to live out in her future. Of course, that would beg the question: what kind of alternate future would she be sending him to?


Quote: Again, I think you missed the point with respect to Imaginary Fiends. That episode illustrates yet another evil Wyatt scenario from the future that is not simply Chris Crossed. Charmed plays with multiple future scenarios that are accounted for in the Book of Three Volume 2.

I don't dispute that. I'm just saying that the transformation that Future Wyatt undergoes in "Imaginary Friends" (of which he admittedly has no memories) doesn't appear to have any direct impact on the Future Wyatt seen in "Forever Charmed." Perhaps because they are totally separate versions of Future Wyatt?"


And my reply:

"Well, here's the point about time loops. Unless Chris is sent back to a future that is not evil, then there is no future Chris period. The Chris that you see in Forever Charmed has not yet had to go back to the past to save Paige and perhaps Phoebe. He will always have to do this. Whether he stays on to prevent Wyatt from turning evil, I can't say.

Now, his motivation may be different. In Oh My Goddess, the world he comes from is devoid of Elders, his parents and aunties. We imagine, but do not know for certain, that Wyatt has turned evil. It doesn't have to be that way at all. In a post-Forever Charmed envirnoment, Chris may have to go back simply to preserve the main time line. Should Paige and/or Phoebe die at the hands of Meta, then his own future will be considerably changed, and it may thrust him into an evil future where he and Wyatt are alone among demons, Titans and whatever else runs amok.

It's no different with the Halliwell's vis-a-vis Melinda Warren. They will always go back to save their own family line. It cannot be any other way IF YOU WISH TO PRESERVE THE MAIN TIME LINE as experienced in Charmedverse.

So, do all the events of Season 6 have to be repeated? Maybe none of them do. Maybe all of them do. After all, isn't the experience of the Avatars the direct consequence of Season 6? Certainly, a Chris who went back to the past to save Paige would have to wrestle with this issue.

Suppose Forever Charmed Chris does not go back to save Paige. Here's then what might happen. As the clock approaches to the minute when a Chris went back into the past to save Paige, both he and Paige (and offspring) begin to experience the nausea that accompanied Chris in The Courtship of Wyatt's Father until they cease to exist. That would be motivation for both Paige and Chris to make sure that Chris went back in time to prevent the unraveling of everything experienced since that time.

Refusal to save Paige erases most of the main time line and makes it more likely that an evil future will dominate. That's a hell of a burden for a young man to shoulder.

In a nutshell, here's what we've got.

Oh My Goddess w/o Chris ------> future devoid of Piper, Leo, aunties, Elders Titans rule: this is the main Charmed timeline. Seasons 6, 7, 8 never happened!

Oh My Goddess with Chris --------> derails main time line where Titans rule ------> leads to an uncertain time line since we don't know whether Chris is needed to save Wyatt from turning evil

Oh My Goddess with Chris who stays till death ----> preserves the time line as depicted in Season 6, 7, 8 -----> also leads to Chris's death when he goes back in time to save the time line as depicted in Season 6, 7, 8

That's pretty much it for the past.

Now, what I am suggesting is as follows:

Oh My Goddess with Chris who stays almost till death ----> preserves the time line as depicted in Season 6, 7, 8 -----> future Paige intervenes to save Chris from Gideon and sends him into a future where evil neither reigns nor has corrupted Wyatt -------> Season 7 Avatar scenario is possibly derailed, but can be rescued as the desire of the Charmed Ones for a normal life and their willingness to pre-emptively vanquish demons makes them vulnerable to the Avatar proposal. Because Leo sides with the sisters, he is punished by the Elders. ----> Season 7 and 8 continue as is -----> Chris will enjoy a life beyond his premature sacrifice in Season 6. (Wait for my full-length novel covering this period.)"

[vandergraafk]

Whitelightertony then raised the question of time loops. He queried:

"VG, here's my question regarding your hypothesis on the time loops:

If the Future Chris we see in "Forever Charmed" hasn't yet traveled back to preserve the timeline by rescuing Paige and he is obligated to do so at some point during his life, then can he ever return to his post-FC life? If so, I'd like to know how?

So, let's assume the timeline moves forward as such:

May 2024 - Future Chris and Future Wyatt time travel back to May of 2006 to participate in the events of "Forever Charmed" and restore Wyatt's powers (which have suddenly and inexplicably disappeared)

June 2026 - Future Chris marries Future Bianca

October 2027 - in an alternate future (now obviously different from the one seen in "Chris Crossed"), in order to preserve the timeline as you've suggested Future Chris makes his obligatory time travel journey back to May of 2003, to save Paige from dying at the hands of Meta; he thereby inserts himself and actively participates in the events taking place between "Oh My Goddess" and "It's a Bad, Bad, Bad, Bad World"; he is eventually killed by Gideon's stab wound, and fades away

Does that mean Future Chris can never return to his post-2027 timeline? Is Future Bianca essentially left a widow?

From the perspective of people in 2027, has Chris suddenly exited their timeline (via time travel back to 2003) and will never return to his present-day (due to the wounds he succumbs to at the hands of Gideon, in the past)?"

In answering whitelightertony's question, I noted:

"Thank you for the timeline. This helps immensely. In Forever Charmed, future Chris is 20 years old. Agreed? (He was born in May 2004.) According to The Book of Three Volume 2, Chris marries Bianca in 2026, presumably when he is 22. Now what age do we wish Chris to be when he rescues Paige in 2003? I'll settle on age 21. That's definitely in-between.

But, you argue that he doesn't time travel until October 2027. Is that because you wish the events of Chris Crossed to be his point of departure? Must it be his point of departure if he is to save Paige?

Suppose he leaves in May 2025 to save Paige, does so and returns to his time only to discover that yes the future has been altered but now in a far worse way. There are no Titans, but Wyatt cannot be checked by anyone: the Elders or Chris. Maybe then he returns again from October 2027 to try to correct his previous error. He rescues Paige, but now stays to prevent Wyatt from turning evil. He averts Chris Crossed, but is unaware of Gideon's gambit.

What I think you need to do is make a compelling case that Chris can only save Paige from October 2007. If you can make this case, then, yes, you would be correct. That there is a problem with the Book of Three, Volume 2 is another issue. (I don't believe the compilers of that volume ever considered the problem their timeline presents since they don't even raise the specter of Chris's death as an issue.)?

[vandergraafk]

As expected, whitelightertony thoroughly parsed the preceding.

Quote: Thank you for the timeline. This helps immensely. In Forever Charmed, future Chris is 20 years old. Agreed? (He was born in May 2004.)

"Actually, I'd place Chris's birth at October 2004, because there are time jumps throughout Season 6 due to Piper's (and Holly's) pregnancy.

The problem is that it's never explicitly stated what year Future Wyatt and Future Chris time-traveled from, in "Forever Charmed." But, yes, I could see an argument being made for them coming from the year 2024 and Chris being approximately 20 to 20-and-a-half years old.

Quote: According to The Book of Three Volume 2, Chris marries Bianca in 2026, presumably when he is 22. Now what age do we wish Chris to be when he rescues Paige in 2003? I'll settle on age 21. That's definitely in-between.

To me, I didn't have a specific age in mind for Chris when he travels back to 2003 to save Paige.

My question, I'd say, would be this: what exactly happens in the year 2025 that causes Chris to feel compelled to time-travel back to 2003? Obviously, you've argued that he needs to do this in order to preserve the timeline...but how does Future Chris learn that this is his personal obligation?

Quote: But, you argue that he doesn't time travel until October 2027. Is that because you wish the events of Chris Crossed to be his point of departure? Must it be his point of departure if he is to save Paige?

Not necessarily. I just threw 2027 out there as a random year from which Chris would depart to 2003. My concern would be not so much what year Chris travels from as it would be why and how he makes the decision to time travel in the first place?

Quote: Suppose he leaves in May 2025 to save Paige, does so and returns to his time only to discover that yes the future has been altered but now in a far worse way. There are no Titans, but Wyatt cannot be checked by anyone: the Elders or Chris. Maybe then he returns again from October 2027 to try to correct his previous error. He rescues Paige, but now stays to prevent Wyatt from turning evil. He averts Chris Crossed, but is unaware of Gideon's gambit.

Wouldn't he already know about Gideon, since his mother and aunts would probably have added an anti-Gideon passage to the Book of Shadows? Which makes me once again ask the question: since this has already all happened prior to Chris's actual birth, then why must he travel back to relive it? (especially since it was a different version of himself who was the one time-traveling to 2003-2004?)

Quote: What I think you need to do is make a compelling case that Chris can only save Paige from October 2007. If you can make this case, then, yes, you would be correct. That there is a problem with the Book of Three, Volume 2 is another issue. (I don't believe the compilers of that volume ever considered the problem their timeline presents since they don't even raise the specter of Chris's death as an issue.)

What does Paige in October 2007 have to do with anything?"

Because Chris has died in the main time line, when he approaches this age (the age he died), he will begin to feel nauseous and begin to fade away. Paige too will begin to fade away. Thus, both have an incentive to correct the past.

As for the October 2007 remark, hmmm, was I thinking of a different date? Typo. I meant 2027!"

[vandergraafk]

Vengeance entered the fray and noted:

"I've not read the whole thread but my understanding is this:-

Chris had to die as the future he came from no longer exsisted in the timeline he was currently in - if he was to return to the future he would simply morph into the new Chris's body. But that would cause problems, cause now the Chris of the newly set future would have memories of the past, ones he shouldn't have.

So perhaps it was the Elders intention all along to kill Chris to prevent any future occurances from happening or any brotherly rivarly that would suddenly start to appear. As the future Chris would bond with the adult Chris we knew creating a Chris that shouldn't exsist. This Chris would have memories of his old life, his current one and memories that he shouldn't have all together.

So in fact by Gideon killing him, they destroyed the adult Chris we knew by killing him and as he no longer exsisted anyway he faded away (perhaps back to his reality, that to us his irrelevant.) allowing the newly born Chris to go about new life without repercusions from his "old" life; allowing him also to be his own man. Lets face it the Chris we saw had been moulded into the person he was because of the world he lived in, this newer Chris should be allowed to become his person.

If the two were to gel together could cause strange consquences. For example Chris and Wyatt's relationship suddenly changing because of the feelings Chris had to the old evil Wyatt.

So basically I'm saying the Chris we saw did in fact die and I believe he had to die to allow the new Chris to lead his own life and not that of his alter egos."

To which I replied:

"Perfectly said, perhaps, by logically flawed. Nowhere in Charmed do we have any rule that declares that a person in the future can have no memories from a past that was not their own biological past. Indeed, the opposite is true: Prue, Piper and Phoebe well remember the events of All Halliwell's Eve. Paige knows the events of Centennial Charmed. Piper knows that if she does not follow future Piper's advice her sisters will die in A Witch in Time.

Second, you suggest that Chris has to morph into the Chris from an altered time line in order to continue his existence. Why? In fact, the opposite is true. There will be no future Chris to morph into. Unless he is sent back to an altered future where he will live out his life, there will be no future Chris at all. Yes, he will have memories of Chris Crossed, Oh My Goddess and whatever else might have transpired however many times he returned to fix the past, i.e., save Paige's life and prevent Wyatt from turning evil. Why should this cause him a problem?

The only difficulty, as I can see, is that Chris will have memory gaps of the new reality, much as Cole did when he created his new, alternative future. Companions will help fill in the blanks and wonder why Chris can't recall simple events that happened. So what? I could see him being sent to the future where he awakens from a coma. Perhaps he was in a car accident. He wouldn't know how he got there or what had happened at certain moments. Or, we could send him back intact and let chance decide what he needs to learn from a past that he has not experienced.

Perhaps this new Chris will be suspicious of Wyatt, wondering whether he had succeeded in preventing Wyatt from turning evil. Unless he burns his bridges with his brother, I can't find fault in that. Indeed, it would be healthy for Chris to question Wyatt's use of his enormous powers. And, since Paige sent him back, she too will understand the situation Chris finds himself in.

Third, I believe you assign way too much power to the Elders regarding destiny. An angel of destiny would presumably know more about what's in store. Thus, one of the things that Paige will have to do is to talk with an angel of destiny to glean more about Chris's fate."

[vandergraafk]

Whitelightertony returned to parse some more:

Quote: Indeed, the opposite is true: Prue, Piper and Phoebe well remember the events of All Halliwell's Eve. Paige knows the events of Centennial Charmed. Piper knows that if she does not follow future Piper's advice her sisters will die in A Witch in Time.

"In the first two cases, each of the characters was still physically in a time outside their own due to direct time travel.

In the latter case, Piper only knows that information secondhand because she encountered a future version of herself.

None of those examples quite parallel those of Future Chris."

Vandergraafk replied as follows:

"Actually, All Halliwell's Eve does precisely. Like Chris, Piper and Phoebe have gone back in time to perform a task in order to change history or - as in the case of All Halliwell's Eve - to prevent history from being changed. Once their tasks have been accomplished, the Charmed Ones (including Prue) are returned to their present time with all of the knowledge and experience they gleaned from their brief foray into the past. The same also happened in That 70s Episode.

The point is: why is it even relevant to wonder what problems knowledge of the past or of an alternative future might cause when one is returned to the time period they came from?

Now, I admit that Chris, upon his death at the hands of Gideon, does not have to deal with being sent back to a future he has never seen. This would be the Chris who is familiar with an evil Wyatt or something like the events of Chris-Crossed.

My point, however, is that any Chris, even one who experienced the sugar-coated future of Forever Charmed and beyond, still has to return to the past in order to prevent the deaths of Paige and possibly Phoebe. He must prevent the destruction of the Elders at the hands of the Titans.

Who would tell him this? Well, the Charmed Ones could for sure. Paige has the most incentive since, as I argue, her existence would begin to unravel the moment any future Chris misses the required trip back to the past.

Now, it might be argued that saccharine future Chris would have no reason to stay since in his reality Wyatt never turns evil. Thus, one could envision a surgical strike that sees Chris save the day and return the next to his time."

[vandergraafk]

Jate88 wondered how A Witch in Time mattered:

"If that is true then how do you explain why Piper doesn't have to go back to the past in "A witch in time" like her alternative future piper had to in order to save her sisters."

I replied:

"Put simply: the threat to her sisters emanated from Piper and Phoebe's intervention in the first instance. Phoebe received a premonition she perhaps ought not to have received, acted upon it and altered what was meant to be. A time ripple opened up that allowed future Cole to dispatch future Baccara in order to save Phoebe from impending death if she persists in saving Miles' life repeatedly.

Stepping into the time portal and repeating the events of a Witch in Time until the moment when Piper and Phoebe messed with fate - in fact, Piper's acceptance of future Piper's advice to go "right" when she should have said "left" - allows events to unfold as they were supposed to in Charmedverse. As a result, no time ripple is opened and future Baccara will never come back to pose the greatest threat ever to the Charmed Ones.

Unlike the events in Oh My Goddess, That 70's Episode or All Halliwell's Eve, the events of A Witch in Time will never ever be repeated."

Whitelightertony wondered how simply I had put it as he again thoroughly parsed my comments.

Quote: Actually, All Halliwell's Eve does precisely. Like Chris, Piper and Phoebe have gone back in time to perform a task in order to change history or - as in the case of All Halliwell's Eve - to prevent history from being changed. Once their tasks have been accomplished, the Charmed Ones (including Prue) are returned to their present time with all of the knowledge and experience they gleaned from their brief foray into the past. The same also happened in That 70s Episode.

"Except that in "That 70's Episode" and "All Halliwell's Eve," the time-traveling Charmed Ones were sent a portal to return them to the present. Chris never returned to his present time; he died in the past.

Quote: The point is: why is it even relevant to wonder what problems knowledge of the past or of an alternative future might cause when one is returned to the time period they came from?

The problem is that, if Chris had returned to the future, he would have been experiencing a future reality for the first time that he was unfamiliar with...unless you accept the theory that he might automatically absorb some or all of the knowledge of the new timeline upon joining it.

Quote: Now, I admit that Chris, upon his death at the hands of Gideon, does not have to deal with being sent back to a future he has never seen. This would be the Chris who is familiar with an evil Wyatt or something like the events of Chris-Crossed.

Chris didn't remain in the future, in "Chris Crossed." So he didn't remain in the new timeline long enough for any effects of his time travel to become evident.

Quote: My point, however, is that any Chris, even one who experienced the sugar-coated future of Forever Charmed and beyond, still has to return to the past in order to prevent the deaths of Paige and possibly Phoebe. He must prevent the destruction of the Elders at the hands of the Titans.

Why can't it be an Alternate Future Chris who saves Paige? After all, we know that the timeline will be at least somewhat different from that which Chris originally came.

Why does present-day baby Chris have to grow up and, as an adult, repeat the actions initially caused by an alternate version of himself who lived a totally different life? Wouldn't that alter the timeline just as badly?

[vandergraafk]

Whitelightertony noted further:

"So when present-day baby Chris grows up to be an adult, what motivates him to make his time travel journey back to 2003? And how does he select which year he will depart from? (2024 vs. 2026 vs. 2028, etc.)

And, since it's a different version of Chris (different from the one we met in "Oh My Goddess") traveling back to 2003, how does his new knowledge alter the future? Wouldn't it create a time paradox?"

Later, he added, "So the Chris who is two years old at the end of "Forever Charmed" will never live past his twenties? He's destined to return to 2003 just to die?

Also, since the Titans no longer exist, wouldn't that alter the timeline if present-day Chris eventually travels back to 2003 to repeat the events of "Oh My Goddess," since defeating the Titans was one variable (along with saving Wyatt) in Future Chris's original mission?"

Vandergraafk replied in two parts. First, I noted:

"The short answer is the following. We know there is a main time line. What we don't know is how "permanent" other time lines are. Are they simply temporary bubbles that appear or do they coexist with the main time line. Since the future Chris that we see in Oh My Goddess has clearly jumped time lines, maybe an argument can be made that these are permanent. However, I regard them as subsidiary to the main time line. Hence, they are not permanent or parallel, if that's a better word choice!"

I then emphatically argued on behalf of the Titans.

"Yes, but the Titans DO exist in the main time line. Someone (Chris) will have to stop them in order to save Paige and probably protect his own birth.

Yes, baby Chris will always die in his early 20s unless Paige can conjure a spell (open a portal) to a future in the main time line."

And, finally I noted that saving Chris should not be easy. It should require great effort.

"Well, yes. That's why it should be very difficult to open a portal to the future. Not to take away from my plot elements, but let's say Paige is going to have to persuade her sisters to summon the Angel of Destiny in order to determine whether Chris is always determined to die at the hands of Gideon."

[vandergraafk]

One of whitelightertony's comments intrigued me enough to add this posting:

"Yes, it is reasonable to assume that one of the Charmed Ones might have made an entry into the Book of Shadows about Gideon. Thus, if main timeline Chris returns to save Paige, he will also have knowledge about Gideon.

There are several consequences that I can foresee. First, Chris will hasten to leave before Gideon kills him. That will, however, change the main time line. Season 7 will be out of kilter, as now Leo will not be angry enough to become an Avatar. As a result, though the Book of Shadows might contain such an entry, it might not be accessible to future Chris. As I've noted elsewhere, the Book of Shadows is ever-changing. Whenever Chris looks in the book, he never comes across this entry!

Second, there is every reason for Paige not to reveal to Chris that he will die at the hands of Gideon. Apart from the consequences to the main timeline, Paige might be compelled to withhold this information in order to gain the power to open a portal to the future in order to save Chris from Gideon. However, Leo's anger will be lessened, as Chris, though attacked, does not die at the hands of Leo."