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Post by vandergraafk on Mar 26, 2008 18:27:22 GMT -5
Exactly who is Cole? Are there some common threads that define his character despite its various incarnations: Belthazor, the human Cole, Cole as the Source, Cole the Invincible. Discuss and debate these issues here.
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Post by vandergraafk on Mar 26, 2008 18:28:39 GMT -5
In the Charmed Cafe, pubesy gets us started with her general remarks concerning Cole:
"cole is a character driven to power. whether HE likes it or not. its all he really knows. he never really knew how to use his human half, because until his assignment of killing the charmed ones, he never really used it. (and even then, early s3, he wasn't being human, he was ACTING human)
for 100 years (or however long) he has been ruthlessly climing the demon corporate ladder, resulting in him being the "sources right hand man." (who knows how many demonic feet he had to tread on to get that gig)
then in the human world he was a lawyer.
dating a charmed one, the most powerful witches out there,
taking in the source (whether voluntarily or not)
stealing powers from the underworld to come back unvanquishable.
but i think he really struggles with this identity, because power is not what cole wants, its what he NEEDS, (if maslow did a demonic heirachy of needs for cole, power would be at the base of the pyramid!) he craves it. then for him to be denied this and become mortal.....he really did struggle.
i feel that this was the most important battle cole ever fought: Love versus power.
how many times did phoebe ask him not to use his power? and he couldn't help but use it for one reason or another?
He even lost his job as a lawyer at paige's work because he could not help but use his brute strength.
look at all the characters he has been.
however, at the same time there were a few times where he truly did chose love over power.
i think one big event where cole chose love over power is the ORIGINAL time where he couldn't kill phoebe in the loft with his knife. that would be the BIGGEST time.
Killing his best friend in the demonic underworld was another.
but isn't it interesting to see that when phoebe abandoned him in the wasteland on the final episode of season 4, cole came back the most powerful demon imaginable? he did not have to chose love over power, as he felt abandoned by phoebe."
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Post by vandergraafk on Mar 26, 2008 18:29:18 GMT -5
I was prompted to write this rather lengthy response as a result:
"Whoa! Let's slow down here a bit. Phoebe abandoned Cole in the Wasteland because she needed a big time-out from Cole after the events of Long Live the Queen. Cole, of course, didn't see a problem. Maybe he assumed that the sisters knew he had been possessed by the Source. Maybe he thought that it didn't matter. But what do you wish to make of this?
As I read your contribution, pubesy, it seems as if Cole is motivated to acquire powers in the Wasteland in order to win back Phoebe, to wow her as it were. But, that goal is secondary to the acquisition of power for the sake of power. As you write, this episode indicates an instance where he did not choose love over power.
What I think you've done, if I've read this correctly, is to set up a false dichotomy: power versus love. For Cole, when he was a human during Season 4, it is clear that Cole believes - rightly or wrongly - that he needs to be able to effect change both to impress his love, Phoebe, and to satisfy his own ego. He is deeply conflicted in Season 4 when his soul openly pines for the ability to make an impact. Hence, he acquires the revolver, which Leo soon thereafter orbs away.
As long as Cole was the half-human, half-demon Belthazor, the change he sought to effect was dictated by his demonic charges. He was a hired gun, as well as the Source's right-hand demon. Introduced to the Charmed Ones and seduced by the charms of Phoebe - or, as the Marvelettes once sang "The Hunter Gets Captured by the Game", Belthazor wavers in his once unquestioned willingness to execute his orders. He betrays the Source and even turns on the TRIAD.
The human Cole in Season 4 still wants to effect change. But, he wants to make a positive impact. He acquires a gun not to engage in criminality, but to take the law into his own hands and deal with a criminal underworld with which he has been intimately involved. Darryl is skeptical, the sisters dislike guns, and Leo will have none of it. Cole is thwarted.
Once Cole discovers in the Wasteland that he not only has survived the recycling operation because he is an anomaly, he also chances into the accidental acquisition of a power he was not meant to absorb. Like a kid in a candy shop, he loses perspective and grabs for as many treats as he can. He acquires more than enough to slay the worm. He attains enough to escape the Wasteland to save Phoebe from Jackman's bullet. Yet, he returns for another lengthy stay to acquire even more power.
The goal is not, as you may have sought to imply, to become an invincible magical creature. The goal was to realize the dream from Season 4: to be free of subservience to demonic masters (then by having his powers stripped, now by acquiring so many powers that none dare challenge him). Using these powers in the cause of good or the betterment of society or even the protection of Phoebe or her sisters was his desire and by doing so he hoped to win back the love he had lost.
Conflict ensues when Phoebe remains closed to the notion that powers, taken from demons, can ever be employed for good. Perhaps she finally accepted what Leo and Piper had stridently stated in Long Live the Queen: you cannot both be the Queen of the Underworld and protect innocents. Phoebe had resisted this dichotomy then; but, surely the events of Long Live the Queen persuaded her otherwise. Now, Cole wishes to be the Master of Demonic Powers, but still protect innocents. If it didn't work for her, why should Phoebe accept the thesis when Cole makes the same argument.
As others have noted in other threads, powers in and of themselves should not carry with them demonic or angelic connotations, especially as demons and witches share many powers. This is even more true if warlocks are dumped into the mix. Yes, they do seem to have powers that are unique to each side. Darklighters have a potion that can kill whitelighters, but whitelighters do not. Demons have the power to reverse time, but witches do not. Demons can be resurrected from the Wasteland, but witches are mortal and die. Thus, there is a flaw in Phoebe's logic.
When she was Queen of the Underworld, her king, Cole possessed by the Source, was pursuing a path to unite the demonic underworld and root out agents of good. As long as she remained with this Cole, she could hardly separate herself from the demonic agenda. If she tried to, as she did in Long Live the Queen, her desire to protect an innocent can only be half-fulfilled. Yes, she can spare him death at the hands of a demon. But, she will force the Charmed Ones to watch over this innocent at the cost perhaps of losing other innocents. Worse: the demons will come back. They will keep trying to get the demon.
Cole, on the other hand, does not have a similar problem. As a powerful magical entity, imbued with a bevy of powers taken from numerous demons, he does not have to worry lest other demons form factions to topple him. He can easily vanquish them. Cole as the Source and Phoebe, on the other hand, had to face the likelihood that factions would form against them, if it appeared that they were double-dealing: uniting the Underworld while saving targets of the Underworld. Death would be preferable to the punishment such treason would demand.
Thus, the equation of Cole Season 5 to Phoebe Queen of the Underworld is misleading. On this, Cole should have been given the benefit of the doubt. Let him prove that he can master these powers and use them for good.
This will not be easy, however. In Sympathy for the Demon, Barbas's attack on Cole raises the question whether Cole can always maintain control of these enormous powers. Thus, it may very well be true that, as Piper noted, Cole is a very powerful entity we should be wary of. Phoebe, of course, has an additional motivation. She believes that she must maintain a distance from Cole in order not to be swallowed whole by him. If she does and he cannot master his powers, then she may very well lose her life or risk the lives of one or both of her sisters.
When future Baccara returns to the past to warn Cole that Phoebe will die, lest Miles be allowed to die, Cole now has before him a powerful anti-thesis. He will not be able to master these powers and harness them to good ends. Sooner than he knows, Cole will become master of the Underworld and lead it to its greatest victories to date. At this point, he'd rather be vanquished than succumb to whatever propels him to become the new, new Source. Suicide by witch is his solution and the final four episodes are simply variations on the same theme."
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Post by vandergraafk on Apr 5, 2008 14:29:46 GMT -5
In sum, here are the phases of Cole as I depicted them:
1) Cole/Belthazor - before Season 3 - evil incarnate, the Source's right hand assassin, a hitman for hire
2) Cole/Belthazor - Triad hitman - clever, insidious, but ultimately cannot complete the deal; betrays Triad, whom he allegedly vanquishes
3) Cole/Belthazor - member of Brotherhood - betrays Brotherhood and is forced to kill a witch as a result; the spell he is under is broken when Phoebe "saves" him in All Hell Breaks Loose
4) Cole/Belthazor (Season 4) - a demon on the run who tries to help the Charmed Ones in his own way (by placing the detective on the rim of the hellmouth after rescuing him from Timbuktu)
5) Cole/Belthazor (Black as Cole) - defends the Charmed Ones against Sykes and is stripped of his demonic powers by a witch wannabe hellbent on avenging her boyfriend who had been killed by Cole/Belthazor prior to Season 3
6) Cole (mortal) - powerless, but longs for action, buys a gun (to no avail) insists on helping Morris
7) Cole possessed by the Source - insidious demon whose actions are the result of the Source's desires, not Cole's.
8) Cole returned from the Wasteland - possesses enormous powers that he tries to do good with in order to win back Phoebe. He fails as the sisters are loathe to trust him. Learning from future Baccara that Cole will lead the Underworld to its greatest triumphs ever compels him to seek a way out: suicide by witch.
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Post by Pubesy on Apr 8, 2008 0:04:07 GMT -5
i cant even find where i posted that comment on the charmed cafe! care to direct?
just out of curiosity... why do you post comments from the charmed cafe here?
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Post by pubesy on Apr 8, 2008 5:24:45 GMT -5
but you would have to agree, cole IS a character attracted to power. I dont think i explained myself correctly on the love/power front. It doesn't need be an either/or situation. sometimes (even unknowingly) he could chose both. this power does not have to be good or evil.
Quote:
i believe cole thought phoebe would forgive him after the source had been removed form his body. he didn't really think it would matter whether had been possesed or not (true love conquers all, right?) however when phoebe appeared to him, refused to use her powers to save him, told him she needed to move on, and so did he, he felt completely dejected. if you remember, sh told cole she was giving up her powers for good. then when she was seen by cole fighting Agent Jackman, powers and all, he saw she LIED to him. how was he meant to feel?
no, i agree, cole was never motivated then for power for the sake of power. or was he? i'm not sure. reading back on transcripts, cole had already vanquished the snake demon when phoebe returned to the underworld. he had already gained enough power then to kill it. he then continued to acquire MORE than enough power to escape the wasteland. Why did he do this? i am not 100% sure. My theory is that, (like females resorting to copious amounts of tim tams and chocolate bars and corny chick flicks after a break up, as many as one can find,) cole resorted back to power, to comfort him. seeing it as a way to "win back" phoebe, or to ensure he does not end up powerless or in the wasteland again. Cole was like a kid in the candy store.
correct. cole sees power, whether it be physical, magical, or any other kind, as something he needs. because HE craves such power so much, he falsely believes phoebe craves it in her suitor too.
sure the primary goal was to win phoebe back by wowing her with the power to do good, making her life easier. but the secondary goal was to ensure that he had enough power never to be challenged by another demon again. having enough power never to be able to be defeated, possesed or killed. hence invincibility? his solution to alot of problems was always power. "But if i had more power....."
but can you blame phoebe for believing this? after vanquishing cole, phoebe feels relieved, free, and like a weight has been lifted. she finally feels she has made the "right" decision, and as she explains to her assistant at work "let's just say I am finally coming out from underneath mine and nobody, nothing will ever bring me back to that place again" Phoebe does not want to have to chose between her "evil" (persay) boyfriend and her powers of "good." so when cole suggests she use the grimoir to resurrect him, she can see herself being bushed down the "evil" path again. she wants to move on from him. she can see the relationship could never work. "Cole, we did the best we could. We tried every way possible to make this work but it wasn't meant to be. And it wasn't because we didn't love each other, it's just love wasn't enough, so now we have to move on, okay, the both of us."
phoebe does not want to try making "evil" powers work for good anymore. they have tried several times before, but it never works. and of course it was not always phoebe's or coles fault. it was just how is.
and can you blame the sisters for thinking this? can you Blame piper and paige wanting phoebe to stay well away from cole? phoebe fears that by staying with cole she will eventually be pulled back into a life of evil, forcing her to chose between her husband and her sisters. and maybe next time, she wont have the chance to chose who to side with. she may end up being responsible for the death of her sisters as she did not stand up to cole in the first place. how does she know he wont become possesed again? how does she know if he will be able to control his demonic urges? what happenes if this power is not enough and he craves more?
phoebe would be stupid to walk such a dangerous road.
and then there is the non magical side of things. No means No. harassment from an EX lover says nothing about love. it just scares phoebe away even more.
Q
Baccara proves phoebe and the girls fears. cole cannot be a good being. it is just not who he is, no matter how much he wants to be good. But Phoebe does not want to kill cole, or help him commit his own suicide. she does not want to give him that pleasure, and she does not want the guilt associated with it. if she is to kill cole, she wants to kill him in protection of an innocent. to kill him outright would be murder.
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Post by vandergraafk on Apr 10, 2008 17:58:19 GMT -5
Pubesy, I will answer your query first since that's easy to deal with. First, the Charmed Cafe has devolved into an almost complete state of anarchy. If I don't post my comments here or work them out here after pasting what I am responding to in the Charmed Care, I have great difficulty finding them again if I need to reference them. Second, as you can probably tell, I am a stickler for organization. This forum represents my sifting of the wheat from the chaff. I only paste the questions, comments and issues that I find most relevant. Third, this forum is probably akin to an index file where I am compiling my research for the book I am supposedly writing on Charmed.
I couldn't tell you where you posted that comment in the Charmed Cafe. Suffice it to say that I always quote others in their entirety and place in quotation marks (though at the outset, I didn't always do this). Some of my comments are edited and re-edited. These may or may not make their way back into the Charmed Cafe.
And, finally, I would prefer that serious debates about Charmed occur here and not in the Charmed Cafe. However, the reality is that the Charmed Cafe has over 8,000 members and grows by leaps and bounds. I will celebrate when I get to triple digits. And, even that is probably meaningless, since not all 40+ members participate. They come and go.
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Post by vandergraafk on Apr 10, 2008 18:09:18 GMT -5
Parsing is good. and well have you parsed. I can't say I disagree. However much Cole desired to have greater power in order to win back Phoebe, shock and awe Phoebe, or just protect himself from any would be challengers, he did not becoming totally lost in him obsession. Had he, he would never have pursued a path of suicide by witch, a path you correctly note that Phoebe would never participate in unless Cole had crossed a line by harming one, several or many innocent(s) or had tried to vanquish the Charmed Ones (or her sisters) himself. Killing the innocent car crash victim in The Importance of Being Phoebe was cause enough, I suppose. However, his vanquish in Centennial Charmed was not a consequence of that. Rather, it was his attack on the Charmed Ones directly that cost him his life. At least, it was the appearance of an attack since Cole clearly could have shimmered away before Phoebe through the potion. He remained suspecting that she would throw the potion despite his soliloquy about all that we had gone through. If - surprise, surprise - she hadn't thrown the potion, he wins. Since she did, he wins too. In vanquish, he found liberation.
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Post by pubesy on Apr 11, 2008 7:56:00 GMT -5
thats why i like the charmed cafe, for its many loyal posters, its the most active site i belong to. and sure, there are quite a few people from a NESB or 12 year olds pretending to be 21 year olds, who love britney spears, but you have to expect that in a board about charmed! there are also quite a few people who know what they are talking about too!
but moving on
cole was never was truly vanquished, was he? so did he really win out of that situation? did he find liberation? during that final vanquish i think cole was completely devastated, because he could not keep the love of his life no matter what universe he was in. and he was shocked by how he treated phoebe in this episode, where he had all the power and respect he could ever dream of, yet he could not have the respect of phoebe.
wasn't he sentenced to an eternity of helping others find love or something? after the final vanquish?
and can you really say that he never became obsessed with power? i am not so sure. he quite enjoyed the power he gained season 5! and remember the episode where paige visits her past and the two ghosts escape from the door? i remember the ghost possesing cole said something like "i know this body loves the power and misses using" or along those lines.
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Post by vandergraafk on Apr 14, 2008 17:56:31 GMT -5
No, I don't believe he was truly vanquished if by vanquish we understand a return to the Wasteland for recycling. As an avatar of diminished powers - the powers of Belthazor - in his alternative reality, upon his vanquish by the sisters at the conclusion of Centennial Charmed, his soul was banished to one of many astral planes, one between life and death, as we saw in The Seven Year Witch. His powers, those that he had when he conjured the alternative reality into being, were folded into the Avatar collective. That's why Avatar Alpha made no attempt - other than a careful warning - to dissuade Cole or to prevent Cole from playing this out. Had Cole's pre-Avatar powers vanished into the void, as it were, Avatar Alpha would never have bestowed this power upon Cole. Come what may, he and the other avatars needed Cole's tremendous accumulation of power.
What Cole found was redemption. Banished from the mortal plane, he had plenty of time to reflect on all that had transpired. Finally, he understood that he could not have Phoebe, no matter what he tried to do. At best, he could hope to influence events so that Phoebe might believe that she could learn to trust non-mortals again. Drake, the demon who wasn't, gained Phoebe's trust. She had to let him go and refuse to cling to him.
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