Post by vandergraafk on Feb 12, 2007 18:56:18 GMT -5
Some fans have suggested that Chris lies about the Titans, as well as Paige's death. Presumably, he did so in order to ingratiate himself with the Charmed Ones. Evidence of this deceit is seen in the cover story that Bianca urges him to use when Chris travels back in time. What follows is a summary of the debate as it appeared in the Charmed Cafe. Maracev, whitelightertony and vandergraafk participated in this discussion.
Post by vandergraafk on Feb 12, 2007 18:57:23 GMT -5
Maracev made the case for Chris the prevaricator in the following contribution:
Or very simple, Chris LIED and the titans never actually ruled the world and Paige didn't really die back then.
It is entirely possible that things happened almost exactly the same way in the original timeline. Leo became an elder, helping the sister gain enough power to vanquish the titans. Perhaps in that timeline Leo didn't foolishly automatically assume that being an elder meant he couldn't be with Piper and stayed part time with her, part time as an elder. Since there wasn't a Chris to send him to Valhalla and keep him away for so long, they were able to work things out and stay together, at least for a while. She got pregnant with Chris, they continued trying to make things work but his elderhood took him away from them for too long, which is why Chris said he never really knew his father and he used to write letters for him all the time. Not having Leo around much could've made Wyatt a bit of a rebelious kid which could've also been exacerbated by Piper's death when Chris was 14 and Wyatt was 16. Perhaps both Chris and Wyatt blamed her death on Leo's job but dealt with it differently. Wyatt became hell bent on gaining power and Chris simply hated his dad.
We get to the point in Chris crossed when Wyatt has gotten so powerful that it's gone to his head and this time Chris decides to go back in time. For that, he needed a cover story. He couldn't just say that he had to stop psycho-power-hungry Wyatt because he knew his mother wouldn't believe him. He also couldn't just drop in and say he was their son because of that whole future-changing crap he constantly spewed. So, he decides to use his knowledge of the titan's attack and Leo's impending elderhood to get their trust and Leo out of the way so he could manipulate them without blowing his cover. What he didn't count on was that him interfering with Piper and Leo as a couple put his own life in jeopardy.
Post by vandergraafk on Feb 12, 2007 18:58:42 GMT -5
This prompted several responses. I gave this point of view a cold shoulder in my initial response. Whitelightertony asked more pointed questions.
But, Maracev, if that's the case, then can't we imagine a reality where Cole becomes an Avatar ... I just don't understand how Chris can lie about experiences that the Charmed Ones have actually experienced. Paige experiences the unusual changes in weather and correctly predicts something momentous in the air. She doesn't know, of course, that she might well die - or will die - unless Chris comes back to save her. Now, if you are suggesting that perhaps Chris-Crossed represents a slightly altered future, one where Wyatt is still running amok, but the Titans are no longer a threat, then that is a seam worth mining!
Whitelightertony's comments were quite exhaustive:
Quote:If the Titans took over after killing Paige, it would seem rather amazing for Piper to live another 14-15 years in that Titan-world environment.
Except that Chris didn't mention that Piper dies in the year 2018 until "Hyde School Reunion," at which point his memories have changed (thus implying the creation of a new timeline) since Chris mentions borrowing money from Paige in the future.
Quote:How would Piper die but Chris and Wyatt remain alive (especially since Wyatt is more obsessed with Power than Chris ever was). It would make sense to want Wyatt, but why keep Chris?
Even when corrupted by power, the Future Wyatt seen in "Chris-Crossed" was reluctant to kill Chris. He was still his little brother, after all. And Piper was probably killed by an upper-level demon, who in turn experienced Wyatt's wrath (since she was still his mother, after all).
Quote:Also, there is no mention of the Titans in Chris-crossed. Does this mean that somehow they decided to hand over the power to Wyatt?
Just because the Titans weren't seen or mentioned in "Chris-Crossed" doesn't mean they weren't roaming the earth. We probably just didn't see them in San Francisco because they allowed Wyatt to rule over his birth city.
Quote:There is no need for Gideon to show up to change Wyatt since we wouldn't see him anyway. TCO do not go to magic school to save Zachery since there is no complete Charmed sister trio to do the job.
Gideon probably doesn't show up until the second future timeline, when the Titans are presumably vanquished by Wyatt still turns evil.
Quote:Or very simple, Chris LIED and the titans never actually ruled the world and Paige didn't really die back then.
No offense, but writing it off as "Chris lied about Paige's death" is simply a cop-out. If he lied about that, how do we know Chris didn't lie about everything else he told the Halliwells?
So we must assume that Meta really did succeed in killing Paige...otherwise, how would she have gained an orbing power and gone on to achieve such great power with Cronus and Demetrius?
Post by vandergraafk on Feb 12, 2007 19:00:57 GMT -5
Maracev responded in part by writing:
Quote:how do we know Chris didn't lie about everything else he told the Halliwells?
We know he didn't lie about Wyatt because we saw it and for the Piper thing, he had no reason to lie about that.
Whitelightertony was hardly assuaged by that comment:
Quote:We know he didn't lie about Wyatt because we saw it and for the Piper thing, he had no reason to lie about that.
I guess I'm confused? You're pretty much agreeing with Vandergraaf's perspective that Chris returned to an altered version of his future reality in "Chris-Crossed"...so, since the Paige whom Chris mentioned in "Hyde School Reunion" was obviously a Paige who existed in a similarly modified alternate reality, what proof is there that Chris originally lied about Paige's death in "Oh My Goddess"?
Maracev clarified her position:
No, I have my own theory that involves Chris lying about the titans ruling the world and Paige dying. I'm just answering your question about why would he lie.
Again, vandergraafk rejected this "theory" by explaining in detail his objections:
Maracev, I must confess that I am absolutely baffled by what you are trying to say. Maybe it's because I don't get it. I don't think whitelightertony gets it either. Let me seek some clarification.
First, I don't see how we can simply shrug off the Titans/Paige thing simply a lie told by Chris. What would the lie be? As I understand it, Chris would have lied to the Charmed Ones about the Titans, the Elders and Paige's death. That is, Chris tries to assure the Charmed Ones that he means no harm because without his timely intervention a world would arise - the one whence he comes - in which the Elders have been decimated, the Titans may or may not rule and Paige is dead (Piper also, but apparently much later).
Certainly, that could seem plausible. However, we (the viewers) see the main timeline (mostly) through the lives of the Charmed Ones. What do they see that allows them to verify the truth content of what Chris is proposing? First, Paige gets wind of something big in the air. She can't quite put her finger on it, but she's certain there's something afoot. When she and Phoebe visit the snow-capped mountainous region where the Titans had been encased, Paige begins to understand what's happening. She lays a trap, a trap that requires her to serve as bait to lure the demons/Titans out. She faces Meta, but doesn't understand what she is up against. Nor does Phoebe who is also present when Paige lets her plan unfurl.
Unless Chris arrives to instruct Phoebe to turn away, she too will surely turn to stone and presumably die, as Paige has already been turned to stone. By throwing the potions, Chris is able to deter Meta from seizing the now rock-solid Paige in order to steal her whitelighter powers at the Titan base of operations (in the mountains). Given that two other whitelighters have turned to stone and disappeared, Chris's explanation that without his intervention Paige's fate would have been similar is credible whether you choose to believe Chris or not. There is independent evidence that strongly suggests that he is not lying.
Once the two Titans, sans Meta, have the whitelighter power to orb that they need in order to exact their revenge, the Elders are at extreme risk. Piper realizes this and tries to warn Leo in time. As Leo discovers, the damage has been done. Many of the Elders have been vanquished by the Titans. Their devastation at the hands of the Titans does seem to fit generally with Chris's description of a future without Elders. However, Chris's suggestion that Leo do the unthinkable, namely, unleash the powers that once had been entrusted to Zeus and the other Greek gods in order to thwart the Titans, does prevent the complete annihilation of the Elders. Quite logically, then, the future that Chris has lived has now been altered. How much it has been altered remains a question. But, the fact still remains: the future will not be Elder free as a result of the Titans.
Without this independent evidence that the Charmed Ones personally experience to corroborate parts of Chris's story, of course, one might argue that Chris had perhaps lied. But why would he? Nothing that Chris did was for his own personal gain unless one might construe a future with Bianca to be a purely personal goal. No, Chris may have been arrogant at times, secretive at others. He may have been hostile towards Leo and extremely manipulative with respect to the sisters and Leo. But, all of this was done to prevent Wyatt from turning evil.
One may disagree with his tactics. Vanquishing demons simply for being demonic is problematic, especially if it corrupts the Charmed Ones. Bossing the Charmed Ones about is not particularly smart, especially when one of them is your mother. Splitting up your parents is really not smart when you depend on them hooking up to ensure your own existence. But Chris probably accomplished some of his mission objectives.
Post by vandergraafk on Feb 13, 2007 18:48:41 GMT -5
Shanta D disagreed with this assessment and took up Maracev's cause:
I agree with Maracev. It's very simple. Chris lied about his mission to protect his family from the knowledge of the future he had: that Wyatt was evil and the sisters were all dead, Piper having died especially young. He couldn't tell them his real mission, so he and Bianca created a cover story. The Titans gave him the perfect entrance into the manor and the sister's lives.
There's no doubt the Titans did get loose, we saw that, and killed many Elders before Leo realized what must be done, turned the Charmed Ones into goddesses and the Titans were defeated. All Chris did was use his knowledge of the events to manipulate himself into their lives. He didn't tell Leo the sisters had to be turned into goddesses, Leo already knew what had to be done and knew how to do it. Chris didn't help hide and save the remaining Elders, Leo did. Chris didn't help the sisters defeat the Titans, they did it on their own. All he did was show up, pick up some potions off the floor (which had already been made by the sisters) and throw them. Phoebe could have done as much if he hadn't stormed in. Piper also arrived seconds later. The Titan was turning whitelighters into stone and bringing them back the other Titans, not killing them on the spot. We don't know if Phoebe or Piper saved Paige originally. If he really came to save Paige, he would have arrived sooner, not at the exact moment she alledgedly "died", cutting it so close they all could still have been killed. It was pure manipulation on his part. His whole part in the defeat of the Titans was inconsequential. I don't think he altered the outcome of the original events at all. The easy defeat of the Titans by Piper alone (Phoebe and Paige weren't even needed) make it impossible to believe they were ever a real threat to the future.
Post by vandergraafk on Feb 13, 2007 18:52:23 GMT -5
Whitelightertony rejected this:
We don't know if Phoebe or Piper saved Paige originally.
Phoebe was about to look into Meta's eyes and turn to stone herself; and Meta was about to gust away with a statuesque Paige in tow. How would there have been an opportunity for Phoebe and/or Piper to "save Paige" at that point? (had Chris not intervened)
Vandergraafk added this lengthy analysis:
Gosh, there are so many, many problems with your thesis, Shanta D, that I don't know where to begin. First, you share Maracev's view that Chris lied. All I read, however, is manipulation. You use this word twice: once as a verb, once as a noun. Not once did I read the word lie. I read, too, that Chris did not tell, i.e., he withheld information. Since when is that lying?
Second, whitelightertony has already indicated that you are simply wrong with respect to Phoebe. Phoebe was about to get zapped by Meta by staring into her eyes as had Paige. She would have been turned to stone. Whether she would have died, too, is another matter since Phoebe did not possess the ability to orb that Meta needed from Paige. Paige clearly would have died.
Third, I will chalk it up to the difficulty of time travel to get things exact. Chris arrived just in the nick of time. Maybe he was a bit on the tardy side since Paige had already been turned to stone. Yet, he arrived in time to save Phoebe and prevent Paige from being whisked away.
Fourth, I just can't see the overall point. Yes, Chris and Bianca have crafted a plan to change the past to change their present and to provide them with a future. Since that plan required the witting or unwitting assistance of the Charmed Ones, a certain discretion was required. You call that deception. I call that being careful. Suppose Chris had simply announced to Piper: Listen, Mom, I'm 22 years old and from a future where Wyatt is a power hungry tyrant who has been absolutely corrupted by his impressive magical abilities. Do you really expect Piper, ever the skeptic, to simply accept that and then do as Chris requested? Hardly! Though I disagree with some of Chris's tactics, I do understand the dilemma he faced: how much to reveal, when to reveal it and to whom.
Let me suggest this. What is the reality that Chris altered by going back to the past? He set in motion certain events that led to the Charmed Ones, as greek goddesses, to defeat the Titans. He did not control these events, nor did he prevent their occurrence. He also saved Paige and quite possibly Phoebe. Had in not acted in this way, we can say for certain that Paige would have died, perhaps Phoebe, too. Without two thirds of the Charmed Ones, it is very credible to believe that Piper would have died as well.
Incidentally, let me suggest that perhaps it was this chain of events that caused Wyatt to become fascinated by power. Imagine not, as Leo suggested, that Wyatt had been held captive for months, even years, by Gideon and how that might have turned him evil. Rather: imagine that Wyatt had witnessed the deaths of his aunts and later his mother at the hands of the Titans and the demonic underworld. With his father, seemingly helpless as an Elder, isn't it understandable that Wyatt would vow to never ever let evil or anyone stand in his way. I imagine that Wyatt would have destroyed most remaining demons; but, then, caught up in his desire to destroy evil, he loses sight of the goal and begins abusing power for the sake of power. At this point, even Chris, his loyal brother equally desirous of exacting revenge, begins to turn away and question Wyatt's actions and their effects. At this point, I can see him hooking up with Bianca, an assassin witch questioning her raison d'etre as well. More than out of love and incredible passion, these two, out of necessity, arrive at a difficult decision: to go back in time to alter most of what they have experienced, aware that perhaps there was but a one-way ticket on this incredible journey.
One clear consequence of this scenario is that Season 6 cannot be viewed as the inevitable results of a carefully hatched plot laid out by Chris and Bianca. Rather, Chris does not really understand why Wyatt turns evil or power-hungry at least. He suspects that perhaps a demon has turned him. Thus, he initiates the sisters on a demon hunt that went far beyond what Piper briefly did when trying to blast through her grief over the loss of Prue (Hell Hath No Fury). Of course, he misses Gideon as a possible source of danger.
There may be a problem that arises in Season 6, one that I can't yet put my finger on. In part, this is because I am conflating Season 6 with Season 7's Imaginary Fiends when future (good) Wyatt comes back and waxes positively about Paige and aunt Phoebe. I am trying to recall whether Chris lets on about Paige or Phoebe after they discover his secret. HELP! If so, then this clearly contradicts the logic of Oh My Goddess!