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Post by vandergraafk on Feb 1, 2007 19:08:43 GMT -5
Must Chris be compelled under any possible future scenario to go back in time to prevent the destruction of the Elders by the Titans? I absolutely believe that future Chris will have to do something. Exactly what he must do and for how long is open to debate. Can he avoid his own death? Perhaps. In my novel, I am working on a scenario where Paige (and Billie) act to save Chris before his demise. But not all fans are of one mind, as whichwitchiswhich demonstrated in the Charmed Cafe:
Alright I see that. Mmhmm. But, if I may pitch another point of view, instead of looking at it like before Gideon's death and after Gideon's death, the future could have made a change anytime before that (and who knows how far back). It could have changed just because of the fact that they all knew about it, were expecting it (not for it to be Gideon but someone) and were not about to stop at anything, and they became destined to stop it. If Chris had not come back from the future to tell them, it would have taken them by complete surprise or at least their focus would have been somewhere else. But instead, Chris was kind of like a message to them. Also, he does try to find a portal back to his future even in the middle of the season to see if it had changed at all. And even if that was before Chris Crossed (can't remember) in which case we see it hasn't... he obviously thought the future might have already been changed. So who's to say it didn't change before Gideon died?
On the other hand. I can accept the fact that future Chris died - that he faded away because of Gideon's magic and not because the future changed; that makes since what you explained.
But I still don't understand how Chris would have to be resurrected for the spin-off like vandergraafk said. Bottom line is... future Chris got killed, yes... but that did not kill his origin: baby Chris from the main timeline. He is alive. And with a different future too as we find out in the end. None of that will actually happen to him. In reality he doesn't really die; however, he WOULD have had his future NOT changed. Whether that change took place while his future self was visiting or anytime afterwards... I guess we'll never know. But I can't help wonder that if Chris had come back long enough to just warn them, would that have been enough? The Charmed Ones knowing (and trusting Chris, which took a while) or not knowing could very well be the deciding factor couldn't it? And besides, the last we ever see of the bad future is on Chris Crossed which is hardly even half-way through the season.
Did the screen writers even think this through or mean to go into depth? lol is there even a real explanation?
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Post by vandergraafk on Feb 1, 2007 19:12:04 GMT -5
Her contribution prompted this response by me:
Well, since you are concerned about a spin-off. Then, let's consider this. Much like at the conclusion of Season 7, the writers painted themselves (almost) into a corner. The sisters were dead; or, so we were led to believe. Brad got them out of the trap by having them fake their own deaths.
Having Chris die at the end of Season 6 is another trap that is almost closed shut. As I indicated before, since neither the Charmed Ones nor Chris know who freed the Titans, neither can effectively alter the fact that the Titans will be freed and Chris will return from the future (several times, perhaps) to save Paige's life, as well as the existence of the Elders.
Thereafter, things get a bit murky! Only if Chris knows for certain that his future does not have an Evil Wyatt can he afford to return to his own timeline after saving the Elders. But does he? If he knows that evil Wyatt exists, then he must remain in the past and repeat the events that led to his own demise. Only if he knows that his future is without an evil Wyatt using power for its own sake, can Chris conclude that he does not need to remain in the past. Thus, he could avoid his own death. Whether he can ensure his own conception is another matter.
However, given that Chris was instrumental in making Leo an Elder and widening a growing rift between Piper and Leo, perhaps he needs to remain at least until he can ensure his own birth. After that has been assured, he might choose to risk revealing that Gideon is the greatest threat to Wyatt. If he does not, then Chris probably can't avoid his own demise again.
Another problem with a premature return to the future concerns all the sundry attempts to turn Evil Wyatt. Chris is instrumental in alerting the sisters to the nature of these threats and providing them with one possible scenario, one which Chris has experienced, namely, a future where Wyatt is evil. Somehow the sisters have to be made aware of what is at stake.
As we know at the end of Season 7, in Imaginary Fiends, baby Wyatt is tempted yet again. Already aware of incessant demon attacks on Wyatt and the possibility that, unless prevented, Wyatt will turn evil, the sisters and Leo know how to deal with the imaginary fiend. If Chris returns to the future before revealing that Wyatt will turn evil, then the sisters will be unaware of the nature of the threat and may not be able to prevent Wyatt from turning evil.
Future Chris is the only one who can know what he needs to accomplish. If he only needs to return to save Paige and the Elders, then he can safely return after rescuing the Elders. If, on the other hand, Wyatt remains evil because the sisters underestimated or poorly understood not only the threat from the demonic underworld, but from Gideon as well, then he will have to relive all of the events that led to his demise.
The sisters, though, can alter the future by preventing Chris from being stabbed by Gideon. Aware, after the fact, that Gideon and Fear have conspired to distract the Charmed Ones at a critical moment, Paige and Phoebe could prevent themselves from being turned loopy by Piper's spell and interfere in the sequence of events that led to Chris's death. That will alter the future for certain. If Chris is sent back to the future before Gideon can stab him, then he will live. The future where Chris has died will have been changed forever.
P.S. Another possible reason why some surmise that Chris did not in fact die pertains to the disappearance of geriatric Phoebe and 10 year old Phoebe in the Three Faces of Phoebe. Once the spell played out, each disappeared from the main timeline. Could Chris's time travel simply have played out after Gideon stabbed him? Thus, his disappearance would seem to affirm his continued future existence.
Again, I am not persuaded. First, it was not a spell, but time travel that brought back Chris. Time travel can not simply be played out. A character must either remain stuck in the past, or find a way to return to a possibly altered future. Disappearance is simply not possible.
But, isn't this what happened to Cole in Centennial Charmed? He disappeared from the main timeline when his half-demonic self was vanquished in the alternate universe. Of course, he did. Traveling to another plane of reality is like time travel. Either he remains in another plane of existence, or he finds a way to return. Since Cole was vanquished in the other plane of existence, he cannot return to the main timeline. He can of course move or be moved to yet another plane of existence where he might existence in some ghost-like state. I surmise that the Avatars placed him in the semi-ghostly plane we see him occupy in Seven Year Witch after they extracted the enhanced powers from him.
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Post by vandergraafk on Feb 1, 2007 19:12:47 GMT -5
Whichwitchiswhich replied thusly:
I can't say I really remember the Titan episodes when Chris first arrives but are you saying that, since they don't know who freed them to stop them, Chris will have to return to the past anyways to save them when he's older?
Arg this is so confusing! I just think of it as like... well that already happened. On the main timeline all of that is already accomplished and that's how it happened, end of story, he has no reason to go back when he's older anymore. Paige is alive, Elders saved, future changed, etc. And so now when baby Chris grows up, he'll hear stories about how his was-gonna-be-future self came back and did all that. But that's not his future anymore so he won't have to follow that path.
When you explain all that it makes me want to think of it like a loop. I don't know if I understand though. So the future Chris comes back for the Titans and to save the Elders and Wyatt and he does and dies in the process. So while he saved Wyatt, that part of the future is changed. So like you said, "Only if Chris knows for certain that his future does not have an Evil Wyatt can he afford to return to his own timeline after saving the Elders." Because now his future has no evil Wyatt but he still has to go back to save them from the Titans? I don't think he does; I think that's already been taken care of by his past future. Just because the future was altered doesn't change the fact that his past future existed on the main timeline and did what he did.
Now if he succeeded in saving the Elders and the whole Titan thing, but did NOT succeed in saving Wyatt and was stabbed by Gideon and killed, THEN I think that loop you are suggesting would happen. Therefore baby Chris would grow up with an evil Wyatt and return to the past to change that (following the same path), but even then the circumstances would be different. Future Chris changes his future just by simply coming back. Like wouldn't he be aware of what happens in his future already because his past future has already returned and failed (which he will know will happen to him for real unless he changes it and goes about it differently)?
What about the season finale anyways, about Chris in the new future?
And you have convinced me that future Chris truly died from Gideon's magic. I don't agree with the dissapearing either now. Good job! lol. My opinion now is only that it will never truly happen to Chris since they change his future, and nothing also changes the fact that his past future played the role that he did in shaping that new future.
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Post by vandergraafk on Feb 1, 2007 19:13:44 GMT -5
vandergraafk briefly reiterated his point and considered a possibility offered by Elder.
Paige is ONLY alive because Chris saved her from the Titan attack. Unless someone can prevent the demon from freeing the Titans and unleashing their revenge against the Elders, then yes Paige will die. Unfortunately, not the sisters, not Chris, not anyone in a position to effect change knows about this in advance. Yes, history will keep repeating! And, Chris will die!
Chris' appearance in Charmed Forever proves nothing. It could be a younger Chris, one who will not yet go back in time to save the Titans. It could simply be yet another series blunder by writers oblivious to Charmed's history. I now prefer to believe that it is an older Chris, one who has already traveled back in time to save Paige and the Titans. What's missing, unexplained and can be easily remedied is for Paige or Phoebe to rescue Chris before he is stabbed by Gideon and send him back to the future. Remember the potion (probably) works.
Elder opined:
...of course we are left to wonder why future-boy Chris does not simply go back in time to before the Titans attack to let his family know something will happen. By the time Chris showed up, the Titans had been released and Paige had already been "stoned"!
That would be like me going back to Pearl Harbor during the attack and saying something will happen...no?
Elder's suggestion seemed eminently reasonable, even if problematic. Vandergraafk offered this quick response:
Yes, that's another possibility. Again, this risks changing the past in ways that might lead to unpredictable outcomes. Second, Chris does not have any information about the specific demon. All he knows is that an attack is imminent. He could clue the sisters in - assuming they trusted him. They would still have to do the sleuthing. Third, even if he can prevent the freeing of the Titans in this way, Chris still may have to act to prevent a future evil Wyatt. This is all rather complicated!
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Post by vandergraafk on Feb 2, 2007 19:16:38 GMT -5
Part of the difficulty in this is simple confusion over Chris, confusion that the writers contributed to by introducing the character one way, developing the character in another and never connecting the two:
Maracev replied thusly:
"Rest assured, baby Chris ensures that Chris will at least live until he is forced to go back in time to save Paige and the Elders from destruction at the hands of the Titans." (Quoting vandergraafk) Why would he have to come back? The current timeline has changed and there is no evil Wyatt, hence there is no need for him to go back. It's an alternate paralel timeline, not fixed in stone, very much like Back to the future when Marty goes back to a 1985 where his dad is dead and his mother is married to Biff.
Alas, if only THAT were the issue. Vandergraafk swiftly replied and restated the issue:
Maracev, the fact that Wyatt is no longer evil does not eliminate the need to go back in time. In fact, that is not even an argument I am making at the moment, although the possibility that he can be turned evil needs to be dealt with in some way. Rather, the original reason for Chris returning to the past is to save the Elders from complete decimation at the hands of the Titans and to save Paige who, without Chris's timely intervention, will surely die when trying to lure a Titan to the attic. This is what Elder and I have been addressing.
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Post by vandergraafk on Feb 6, 2007 18:10:42 GMT -5
Whitelightertony was prompted to make these comments in the Charmed Cafe:
Quote:Chris' appearance in Charmed Forever proves nothing. It could be a younger Chris, one who will not yet go back in time to save the Titans. It could simply be yet another series blunder by writers oblivious to Charmed's history. I now prefer to believe that it is an older Chris, one who has already traveled back in time to save Paige and the Titans. What's missing, unexplained and can be easily remedied is for Paige or Phoebe to rescue Chris before he is stabbed by Gideon and send him back to the future. Remember the potion (probably) works.
I always assumed that the version of Chris whom we saw in "Forever Charmed" was just the older future version of baby Chris from S7/S8...hence, since the Titans had already been vanquished by the end of S5, that Chris would have no memory of a world where the Titans ruled supreme - - unless he somehow absorbed the memories of the Chris whom Gideon killed (whose own memories should be altered in some form, since he created a new reality where Paige survived and lived on).
Confused yet?
Quote:...of course we are left to wonder why future-boy Chris does not simply go back in time to before the Titans attack to let his family know something will happen. By the time Chris showed up, the Titans had been released and Paige had already been "stoned"!
Well, as Gideon said, time travel is not always precise...and in fact can be unpredictable and inexact. So maybe Chris and Bianca intended to send Chris back to months before the events of "Oh My Goddess"...but he ended up arriving just before the Titans had been released, and by the time Chris had brokered the deal with the Valkyries and orbed into the attic, Paige had already been turned to stone by Meta? Quote:Chris' appearance in Charmed Forever proves nothing. It could be a younger Chris, one who will not yet go back in time to save the Titans. It could simply be yet another series blunder by writers oblivious to Charmed's history. I now prefer to believe that it is an older Chris, one who has already traveled back in time to save Paige and the Titans. What's missing, unexplained and can be easily remedied is for Paige or Phoebe to rescue Chris before he is stabbed by Gideon and send him back to the future. Remember the potion (probably) works.
I always assumed that the version of Chris whom we saw in "Forever Charmed" was just the older future version of baby Chris from S7/S8...hence, since the Titans had already been vanquished by the end of S5, that Chris would have no memory of a world where the Titans ruled supreme - - unless he somehow absorbed the memories of the Chris whom Gideon killed (whose own memories should be altered in some form, since he created a new reality where Paige survived and lived on).
Confused yet?
vandergraafk replied as follows:
I'm still thinking this one through. If Chris is older than the Chris who died at the end of Season 6, then he surely would remember the Titans (no pun intended). If he is younger, then he would know nothing (yet).
I believe though that since he comes back - with Wyatt - from a future world where Wyatt is not evil, the Elders are still around, that this Chris must be older. The only thing the writers would need to explain is how he managed to survive his death. Paige could easily fix that since in a way she owes Chris for his having saved her life.
And, yet time travel seems to be not easily fixed, although as Charmed wore on, time travel seemed to become more and more precise, especially the love travel in Forever Charmed.
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Post by vandergraafk on Feb 6, 2007 18:12:45 GMT -5
ShantaD, writing in the Charmed Cafe, was not pleased at all and attempted to eliminate the problem by fiat:
There's no need for Chris to go back in time again. The future and past have both been changed. Even if I accept the premise he wasn't lying all along about the Titans and Paige dying ( I think he lied, he and Bianca say outright they have concocted a cover story to cover Wyatt being evil), that timeline is gone. Paige wasn't killed in 2003 by the Titans, she's alive and well years later. The Titans aren't still ruling the future in 2026, they were destroyed. Chris doesn't grow up without a family because of the Titans causing him to decide to go back in time. The Titans are long gone and he lives happily with his parents and brother with Paige and Phoebe both alive and well. There's no reason at all for him to go back in time again.
Before vandergraafk got a chance to reply, Elder chimed in with this appropriate commentary:
maybe Chris and Bianca intended to send Chris back to months before the events of "Oh My Goddess"...but he ended up arriving just before the Titans had been released
If that were the case, he seemed rather prepared when he showed up, don't ya think? If he was meant to go back a few months earlier, he showed up saying "Don't look into her eyes!" and it looked as if he knew where he was at that time and why he was there. He knew exactly what he was doing when he showed up for the first time.
Then, vandergraafk weighed in with this lengthy reply:
First, I don't think anyone ever claimed that the Titans ruled in 2026. No, Chris came from a time when there were no Elders and Wyatt had become seduced by power. Second, perhaps Chris and Bianca concocted a cover story, but I don't see how you can argue that a timeline gets wiped out. Why? Because you say it did. Show me how the timeline gets eliminated.
Let's consider this scenario. Bianca and Chris are discussing what to do about evil Wyatt. After an exhausting analysis, interrupted by occasional, yet powerfully passionate love-making and ever on the lookout for Wyatt robot spies, Chris and Bianca conclude that the reason that Wyatt is such a problem is that a) there are no Elders to thwart him and b) he has been turned evil by some demon in the past. How best to remedy the situation? Well, in 2026 the Elders simply cannot be conjured out of nothing, if they have all been destroyed by the Titans. (Perhaps the Titans, too, had been vanquished by an alliance between Zankou and Wyatt or Zankou and the Charmed Two or Zankou, the Avatars and the Charmed Two. I don't really care. The point is: the Titans do not rule in 2026!) If Chris could be sent back in time and avert the destruction of the Elders by the Titans and, incidentally, save the life of Paige, then perhaps, just perhaps, they could prevent Wyatt from turning evil. So Chris must go back in time. Otherwise, a demon will free the Titans and all hell will break loose.
Suppose Chris goes back in time and helps the Charmed Ones fend off the Titans, then what? He knows that one of the possible sources of his evil future has been eliminated. The Elders will now be around and could conceivably hold Wyatt in check. But, he doesn't know that, does he?
Imagine that Bianca and Chris have thought about that too. They realize that somehow Chris will have to remain in the past, at least for a while, to somehow ensure that no demon turns Wyatt evil. Since Wyatt did not confide in either Bianca or Chris, they have no real way of knowing why Wyatt turned evil. All they know is that he did. So, concoct a cover story and try to get appointed as the Charmed Ones new whitelighter, especially after making sure that Leo becomes an Elder. Works for me.
Now, Bianca and Chris are smart enough to realize that the Charmed Ones and Leo are not simply going to believe that Wyatt will become evil. Whatever props Chris gained with respect to the Titans, it is going to take something drastic for Piper to ever believe that her first born will turn evil. So, Chris and Bianca conclude that the truth must be brought out in dribs and drabs. Let Chris have the Charmed Ones track down a bunch of demons and watch other wackos try to take possession of Wyatt. Gradually, the Charmed Ones will be ready to accept a future where Wyatt has become evil and do what they can to prevent that future from happening.
Yet, neither Chris nor Bianca can know exactly when enough is enough. Will they get lucky and wipe out the demon that turns Wyatt evil? It could happen. Will enough demons make a move on Wyatt so that the Charmed Ones can handle these threats without Chris (see Season 7's Imaginary Fiends)? In Chris-Crossed, Chris realizes two things. First, he has not yet succeeded in identifying the demon that turns Wyatt evil. Second, if he does not succeed, even his true love will betray him. He must succeed.
Now, that's how the two story arcs can be connected. I realize it was never done in Charmed. And, it has caused lots of problems. These problems were compounded by the decision to axe Chris at the end of Season 6. One way to get rid of the character is to kill it off. That was done to Cole, as well as Prue. So why not Chris?
Getting rid of Prue was not too difficult. After all, there was a credible scenario created where one, two, three or none of the sisters would die at the hands of Shax or the Source. Since Shannen was ousted, it was Prue who bit the dust. Cole was a bit more difficult to get rid of, especially after it had just been established that he was Mr. Invincible. Fortunately, the Avatar lay in waiting and Cole could jeopardize his future by reverting to a less powerful Belthazor and playing out his suicide by witch desire. There are a lot of fans who have trouble buying that one.
Chris is an even trickier matter. If you kill off a character from the future in the past, you end his future too. I don't care how much he changed his own future. His death in the past ends his life in the future. That's an elementary rule of time travel. It cannot simply be issued out of existence by fiat. Of course, there's a way to fix this. Either Chris does not have to remain until Gideon kills him by leaving much earlier without learning who turns Wyatt evil, or he remains until the very end, but is saved from his own demise by Paige or Phoebe casting a spell to send him back to his own altered future.
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Post by vandergraafk on Feb 12, 2007 19:06:38 GMT -5
Whitelightertony quoted vandergraafk from a relatively unimportant aside to Maracev, an aside where he questioned the whole notion that the whole Titans/Paige thing was made up whole cloth.
Now, if you are suggesting that perhaps Chris-Crossed represents a slightly altered future, one where Wyatt is still running amok, but the Titans are no longer a threat, then that is a seam worth mining!
Whitelightertony gave this interesting reply:
Quote:The second reality is the future back to which Chris is brought by Bianca. Chris knows absolutely nothing about that future reality except that Bianca apparently has been turned by Wyatt, Wyatt is still a problem and Wyatt has found a way for forward and backward time travel. From the vantage point of the attic, Chris has no way of knowing what minute changes his appearance in the past has brought about. He can conclude that his mission was not yet finished. The second future was no different enough from the first future for him to conclude that he could safely exit the past.
So essentially, the Bianca whom Evil Wyatt sent back to retrieve Chris isn't the same Bianca who helped Chris cast the time travel spell to send him back to 2003 in the first place?
My only problem with that concept is that the future reality seen in "Chris-Crossed" is the same one that Chris originally time-traveled from. So without the Power of Three turned into goddesses, I don't see how the Titans could have been defeated. So I think it's also reasonable to assume that the Titans were still in power, in the reality seen in "Chris-Crossed," even if they weren't explicitly mentioned.
vandergraafk replied thusly:
Whitelightertony, I have to vehemently disagree with this. First, there is no indication in Chris Crossed that the Titans are in charge. Maybe - and this is a huge maybe - the detritus that we see is a result of a battle of the Titans versus Wyatt or whomever. I don't know.
I do know this. There are two future realities depicted in Chris Crossed. There is the one where Chris came from when he and Bianca hatched their plot to go back in time. The second reality is the future back to which Chris is brought by Bianca. Chris knows absolutely nothing about that future reality except that Bianca apparently has been turned by Wyatt, Wyatt is still a problem and Wyatt has found a way for forward and backward time travel. From the vantage point of the attic, Chris has no way of knowing what minute changes his appearance in the past has brought about. He can conclude that his mission was not yet finished. The second future was not different enough from the first future for him to conclude that he could safely exit the past.
I hope this helps since it is important to keep these separate.
Whitelightertony responded as follows:
Quote:The second reality is the future back to which Chris is brought by Bianca. Chris knows absolutely nothing about that future reality except that Bianca apparently has been turned by Wyatt, Wyatt is still a problem and Wyatt has found a way for forward and backward time travel. From the vantage point of the attic, Chris has no way of knowing what minute changes his appearance in the past has brought about. He can conclude that his mission was not yet finished. The second future was no different enough from the first future for him to conclude that he could safely exit the past.
So essentially, the Bianca whom Evil Wyatt sent back to retrieve Chris isn't the same Bianca who helped Chris cast the time travel spell to send him back to 2003 in the first place?
Whitelightertony,
You've asked a difficult question. I tried to examine this from the perspective of Chris. Clearly, he is disappointed that Bianca has come back, not as an ally, but as a witting helper of Wyatt. In her mind, Bianca does so out of love for Chris. She knows that any other assassin witch sent back to retrieve Chris would be less likely to have compassion and more likely to simply vanquish him.
In the first future reality, Bianca was clearly an ally. Now, in the second, she is not an ally. But, she is not an enemy either. Did she change because Wyatt found out the truth about the original plot to have Chris alter the past to change his (and Wyatt's) future? Did she change because of what Chris had done? I don't know. All I know - and Chris knows, much to his chagrin - is that Bianca has changed.
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Post by vandergraafk on Mar 29, 2007 12:22:55 GMT -5
Maracev still persists in believing that Chris does not die. Again, in the Charmed Cafe, she noted:
He died as an adult in the past while he was being born in the present. The new version of him can survive because will not be living the same life that other Chris from the future lived. It is an alternate reality created when the future events were changed.
To me it always seemed like Chris had to be Piper and Leo's son, even before we knew about Holly's pregnancy. There were hints srinkled all over the early season 6 episodes disguised in his behavior both towards Leo and Piper and little things he said every now and then. From the very begining of the season we found out that Chris couldn't heal. What kind of whitelighter can't heal? Up to that point, half breeds like Paige.
In responding this time, vandergraafk chose a different tactic: examine the actions of future Chris in his now altered future. vdggk replied as follows:
Maracev, you can repeat it as often as you like, but you simply cannot assert that Chris will somehow live a carefree and happy life in his la-la future. His future is indeliby shaped by his active participation in the past. He must go back into the past to save Paige, the Elders and the Titans. If not, he will alter his own timeline. Perhaps that must happen to convince him to go back to the past - not because Wyatt is evil or whatever else afflicts Wyatt. It was unexplained, as laiste noted, and will remain so until the point is addressed.
Let's consider for a moment what might happen if that seminal moment in Chris's future arrives, the moment when he went back into the past to save the future and change the then present. If he should miss his time travel, the world as he knows it should shift dramatically, for everything that preceded his own timeline will have been altered the moment Paige died, the Elders were vanquished and the Titans ruled. It's as if he had sneezed his way into an alternative reality, only now this reality would have displaced the main timeline.
How long would Chris have to remain in this suddenly horrible future present to realize that something had terribly gone wrong in the past? Much as the boys did in Forever Charmed, they - or let us say an uncorrupted Chris - could cast a spell taking him back to the moment when things went awry. Saving the past would allow him to go back to his altered future to hopefully reclaim his future.
Unfortunately, the means by which Chris will save the past is to risk his own future, as he is forced to split up Leo and Piper. Maybe he has to hang around long enough to ensure that he gets them back together again. Whether that means he has to die at the hands of Gideon, I can't say. I don't know how much of Season 6 would have to replay before Chris is convinced that he can return.
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Post by vandergraafk on Mar 29, 2007 12:27:26 GMT -5
Elder once again posed a fundamental question:
Chris will somehow live a carefree and happy life in his la-la future. His future is indeliby shaped by his active participation in the past. He must go back into the past to save Paige, the Elders and the Titans.
Of all the questions I have brought up...this one may be the dumbest one yet!
If future Chris comes back to do something in the present, doesn't he have to go backwards from the time he died?
In other words...Chris from 2028 comes into 2003. Doesn't he have to pass the time in 2004 when he apparently died? In order to get to this time, he has to pass the point where he died as he comes backwards through time from the future.
(I told you I hate this time travel stuff)
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Post by vandergraafk on Apr 3, 2007 23:01:53 GMT -5
Time travel still poses problems in Charmedverse. Perhaps this stems from a poorly articulated conceptual framework. In the Charmed Cafe, vandergraafk sought to clarify his conceptual framework:
The major problem here seems to be that none of you articulates your vision of time travel. I have, and that's why I'm relatively sure that he is caught in a time loop: albeit a time loop that is interrupted with his death.
To repeat: if one allows for time travel - both forward and backward - then there must be a multiplicity of pasts, presents and futures. Each of these co-exist simultaneously and does not exist. That is the QUANTUM PARADOX. The existence of any timeline is simply a probability density function outcome. If one talks about a main timeline, then one is talking about the most probable timeline. For Charmed, the most probable timeline is the one that exists from the perspective of the Charmed Ones themselves. All other timelines are subordinate to this main timeline. Chris, as a member of the Warren line of witches, is an integral part of this main timeline.
A time loop, of necessity, results from time travel. There are at least four instances of time travel in Charmed that are sufficiently developed as to allow us to gain insight into the mechanics as used in Charmedverse. In All Halliwell's Eve, the sisters are sent back in time to save the Warren line of witches from demonic interference. By virtue of the fact that the witches are sent home after completion of their mission the sisters are not condemned to get stuck in the past. If the main timeline past is revisited, we will always see the sisters sent back in time. That's the time loop. They have become midwives to their own line of witches.
When I speak of a time loop, perhaps it would be helpful to have a visual image in mind. Think of a roller coast with a loop-de-loop. At some point, the coaster rises and loops back over its track and descends again on a parallel track. Now, there's no parallel track here. What we have is a junction, as the descending loop merges with the track from before. If there is no exit from the main track - I use exit rather loosely, then you will be condemned to repeat the loop over and over. That's what happens to Chris. Future Chris will die, while baby Chris will be born to resume the loop over and over.
When the Charmed Ones in All Halliwell's Eve or Wyatt and Chris in Forever Charmed engage in time travel, they too make the loop. However, after their mission is accomplished, they find the bypass track that allows them to avoid the loop (the Charmed Ones) and to skip ahead further down the track as future Wyatt and Chris are able to do as well. Were they not able to do this, then each traveler to the past would have to live out their future lives in the past. So, the Charmed Ones might have died by 1685 or future Wyatt and Chris would have lived simultaneously with their younger versions.
Chris, as I noted, is unable to do this. He dies as a result of Gideon's potion. He will always die unless Paige or Phoebe can manage to send him past the loop somewhere further down the track, presumably to a point close to when his loop began in order that his absence will not be felt by any loved ones.
Looking at their situations from further on down the track, we can recognize where the loop was and notice that both the Charmed Ones, as well as future Wyatt and Chris, have moved on. Season 6 Chris, though, is condemned to die and be reborn and forever make the loop, unless he can do as future Wyatt and Chris do, namely, to escape onto a bypass track.
Looked at from the past, the loop will always exist in the future. It is unavoidable. That is what I mean when I state that the Charmed Ones are midwives to their destiny. In a return trip to the past, if they stay on the main track, they will always have a trip to 1670 on the horizon (unless of course the past they visit is after 1670, namely, That 70s Episode).
For future Wyatt and Chris, they may or may not have to go back to the past to discover what happened to Wyatt's powers. Is it possible that in a different past, Phoebe actually would get a premonition of the coming Ultimate Battle Mark I and avoid her own death? Of course, it is. If so, then the Ultimate Battle Mark I never takes place and Wyatt never loses his powers.
Time travel, if you allow it, is that simple or that probable from a quantum mechanical perspective. Now, did the production team fully grasp the mechanics of time travel. Probably not. Heck, most people simply get blown away by Quantum Physics.
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