Post by vandergraafk on Nov 27, 2006 19:30:57 GMT -5
Was he or wasn't he? In Charmed Again, Part 1, Phoebe states that Prue and Piper vanquished Shax (in front of the hospital while cameras were rolling). Yet, no power of three spell was incanted by Prue or Piper. So, was Shax truly vanquished. We do know that at the end of Charmed Again, Part 1, the power of three does succeed in vanquishing Shax.
Before discussing the merits of whether Shax was vanquished by Prue and Piper (before time was rewound), let us note that a vanquishing spell contained in the Book of Shadows may have been written by a witch of lesser ability. Since this witch presumably had been unable to vanquish Shax with potion or spell, she may have assumed that the power of three was required. However, if the Shax vanquish spell is not the result of historical record and was inserted perhaps by the Elders, then it might very well be that Shax could not be vanquished without the power of three.
Post by vandergraafk on Nov 27, 2006 19:31:45 GMT -5
A while back, in the Charmed Cafe, a huge discussion regarding the alleged vanquish of Shax by Prue and Piper was unleashed. Here are the highlights:
It all started innocently enough. I was commenting on why Prue died in All Hell Breaks Loose and laying part of the blame for Prue's death on Phoebe's obsession with saving Cole. Well, here goes:
The fact that magic was exposed did not cause Prue's death. Prue's death was the result of the Power of Three not being present to chant the spell to vanquish Shax. When the re-constituted Power of Three was able to chant the spell in Charmed Again, Part II, Shax was vanquished.
I soon received a response which clearly shows the dividing line.
Actually they didn't need the power of three to vanquish Shax in AHBL. Prue and Piper did it without Phoebe. They were the strongest. Without Prue, they needed all three sisters including the newbie.
Jun 9, 2006, 12:13pm, vandergraafk wrote:Uh, excuse me? Where in All Hell Breaks Loose is it clearly stated that Shax has been vanquished? Perhaps in front of the hospital when Griffiths has been blown out of the car? I think you are assuming way too much. Clearly, Piper and Prue cannot eliminate Shax without the Power of Three spell, but now you wish me to believe that Piper and Prue can eliminate Shax by chanting a power of Three spell without the three sisters? I can't accept that. Besides, if that were true, then why bother to replace Prue after her death. Just give Phoebe some more active powers.
I know why it is tempting to suggest that Piper and Prue can vanquish Shax with a Power of Three incantation. It certainly absolves Phoebe of any indirect responsibility for the death of Prue. But, you can't have it that easy. Let's continue this debate in the All Hell Breaks Loose thread, if there is one. If not, let's create one.
In front of the hospital was when Shax was vanquished my Prue and Piper. It was definately a vanquish whether you want to admit it or not. It looked nothing like when Phoebe said the spell or when Piper blew him up. Plus, Piper even says "Now that was a vanquish". The sisters had been vanquishing demons long enough to tell what's a vanquish and what's not. They knew in Prewitched when the warlock had been completely destroyed. Same goes for Shax. Also, Shax didn't appear in the episode again after that (until time was reversed). Clearly he was gone.
I can get the transcript if you like as well. They never say that they need The Power of Three to vanquish Shax in AHBL. All that was mentioned was that they probably needed more than one witch for the spell to have its full effect. Phoebe was able to wound him and she's not Prue or Piper who were stronger. Why is it so difficult to believe that the two stronger sisters could take out Shax when the youngest one can wound him alone?
I replied as follows:
Okay, but didn't Piper equally think that she had vanquished Shax on the sidewalk as they were being filmed by the news crew? Just because the Charmed Ones think they've vanquished someone, doesn't mean that they've really been vanquished. Later, in AHBL, when the sisters need Tempus to reset time, aren't they surprised to learn that Tempus has not been vanquished? After all, they thought they had. Just thinking something doesn't make it true.
Besides, my larger point is: if you regard the hospital incident as a true and complete vanquish, then wouldn't the Source have mentioned that when Cole approached him. The Source shows no sign that Shax had been vanquished. He holds all the cards because Phoebe (and Leo) are in the Underworld. And, that, I am afraid, is the consequence of Phoebe's obsession with saving Cole that led indirectly to the death of Prue.
I don't need a transcript to help resolve this. I have the DVD and have watched the episode quite a few times. (I'll watch it again and compare it with Charmed Again Part II, if you like.) The fact that Shax does not reappear means nothing. First: he probably has been wounded. Second, there is not much more that unfolds in that timeline. All Hell does break loose at the manor, as now Piper and Prue are really in trouble. We are left to guess as to whether Shax has been vanquished or not. You know where I am on this debate.
Besides, my ultimate question remains. Does Phoebe bear any responsibility - direct or indirect - for the death of Prue? I contend she does. The responsibility is indirect and comes about as the result of her obsession with saving Cole. Had she not done so, just maybe she could have helped vanquish Shax in a way that did not expose the sisters.
Of course, that's a rewriting of the script. We could do that. We could then keep Prue (yeah!!!) But the reality is: Shannen Doherty left the cast!
And, not to add salt to the wound, aren't the Charmed Ones surprised to learn that they haven't vanquished the Triad when the younger generation warlock offers them help?
Post by vandergraafk on Nov 27, 2006 19:49:03 GMT -5
The Original P3 offered this rejoinder:
Yes Piper thought she defeated Shax but Prue has always had a 6th sense for those sort of things. She very much doubted that Piper's powers were enough. And I'm obsessed with AHBL so you don't need to watch that episode or Charmed Again for that matter.
And also, when has the Source ever cared about a demon or expressed the feeling of loss? He had no problems with wanting to kill his own oracle, I doubt he would have shed a tear or expressed any concern over Shax' death.
I too indirectly blame Phoebe for Prue's death. But I don't ignore the fact that Prue and Piper together were able to vanquish Shax. They didn't even mention needing the power of three to vanquish him in AHBL. That was not mentioned until Charmed Again when the sisters were weakened.
As for Tempus, there is a difference. Tempus we saw didn't get vanquished. In the episode he goes away where he came and took his robe with him. Shax on the other hand went poof. You seem to be the only person who thinks that Shax was no vanquished by Prue and Piper.
As for the Triad crap. They were not the Triad to me. This was the biggest piece of crap in season 8 to do that to such a great evil team. The Triad died when Cole killed them in Power Outrage. What we saw in S8 were cheap replacements.
vandergraafk soon replied:
Why would anyone expect the Source to care about the loss of a demon as you define it? He would however concern himself with success or failure. A vanquish of Shax, the Source's personal assasin, would have caused the Source to worry about how he would vanquish the Charmed Ones. There's isn't even a hint of concern.
You might justifiably complain that I am reading between the lines, and perhaps I am. But, I don't see how you can just chuck off Season 8. I, too, have a problem with the Triad. I thought the problem of their reappearance had been explained in Kill Billie, Volume 2. That they switched actors is a problem, I agree. But, then, the actor who placed the Source was changed from Michael Bailey Smith to Ben Guillory to Peter Woodward. Problem? I don't think so.
The problem I have with the Triad are their alleged power to freeze. This poses a real problem for me. I know Brad Kern has acknowledged some gaffes. In Charmed Magazine he addressed the issue of whether Phoebe can distinguish between a lug nut and a tire iron in Death Becomes Them. However, I am not bothered by that kind of gaffe because why not assume that Phoebe was using her ignorance as a tease to latch onto a new boyfriend. So, she pretends not to know how to change a flat tire to give a guy she is interested in a sense of being helpful. That Grams, though, does not know the Charmed Ones are Charmed in Forever Charmed is utterly stupid since she already learned that in That 70s Episode. See my extensive comments on this in Season Finale disappointments.
All Hell Breaks Loose is a great episode, but it's not as good as Centennial Charmed. I know this comment will annoy, but too bad!
As for Tempus, why does it matter what we think we saw? I raised this point specifically because the Charmed Ones think that they have vanquished Tempus. And, even though you are probably going to dismiss this, since it's a Season 8 reference, Paige, I believe, has to "console" Billie when Billie wonders how come vanquished demons don't stay vanquished. I suspect you just hated the return of the Source, if only briefly during Season 8.
And, finally, are you now indicating that a Power of Three spell can be incanted by just two of the Charmed Ones and be just as effective? If so, then you are going to have to re-write several later episodes that made the very point that a Power of Three spell requires all three Charmed Ones. Now who's violating the Charmed canon?
But the Original P3 was not convinced:
The Source had lost multiple demons before so the lose of Shax would not concern him. He's in the process of getting time reset therefore Shax would, inturn become UN-vanquished so why should he care? His hitman would get a second chance and he seemed pretty confident of this before he reset time.
As for changing the actors of the Source. That was not a big deal in the slightest. The first time we saw the Source's face was in Charmed and Dangerous. They changed his outfit, sure, but they never changed his appearance because the first time we SAW his apperance, he was played by Peter Woodward. No problem with that change at all.
And no, Centenial Charmed is not as good as AHBL. Not nearly as thrilling and edge of your seat drama filled. IMO, nothing in the series has topped the brilliance of AHBL.
And yes I hated the return of the Source. Why? Because it was handled very poorly. So since a demon was summoned, they are all of a sudden connected to their summoner? I don't buy it. If that were the case then The Charmed Ones should have been connected to Krell and Cole.
No where in AHBL did they say they needed The Power of Three to vanquish Shax. Only thing that was said was that more than one witch was needed to make the spell have its full effect.
I don't ignore canon. I interpret things as I see on screen.
Okay, so vandergraafk was not as sophisticated in his response:\
Seeing is not always believing. Besides, the loss of multiple demons before is only going to matter to the Source because success is what counts. Demons don't have feelings. They can only lust after possession and power. The failure on the part of Shax to vanquish the Charmed Ones would concern the Source greatly. That no comment is made on what Shax is up to speaks volumes for me. The fact that time will be re-set and Shax will have another chance is of no consequence. That's what it means to re-set time.
More important: the fact that time is re-set - on the Source's terms where he holds all the cards means that Phoebe cannot provide the Power of Three spell, as we can see and hear when Prue calls out for Phoebe. Nor, can Phoebe participate in a Power of Three vanquish to definitely finish off Shax - at least until he is brought back from the Wasteland. And, Leo cannot arrive in time to heal Piper and Prue, if needed. (I know he was needed!)
P.S. If ABHL is superior to CC, then explain to me the whole logical flaw regarding (M)Alice. Explain to me how the SFPD is so incompetent that a whacky woman, who has already been identified by Darryl, can climb up atop a VW bus, aim a rifle and shoot directly into the chest of Piper, without the SFPD doing a thing? I mean the SFPD aren't FEMA, or are they? But, you won't find any such flaws in CC. Rock on Centennial Charmed!