VANQUISHING COLE

[vandergraafk]

Many pixels have been splayed across postings in an attempt to understand the vanquish of Cole (twice) by the Charmed Ones. There is, of course, the first vanquish of Cole at the conclusion of Long Live the Queen when the Source, possessing Cole, is finally vanquished and sent to the wasteland as a result of the Phoebe/Cole vanquishing spell that invoked the entire Warren line of magic for success to obtain. Then, there is the final vanquish of Cole in Centennial Charmed that was the culmination of several attempts at vanquishing Cole in Sam I Am and The Importance of Being Phoebe. At this point, the Charmed Ones were unsuccessful in vanquishing Cole with Paige's three potions, but they had not invoked the magic of the Warren witches to finish off the vanquish. Instead, it is Cole who concocts different scenarios whereby the Phoebe, as well as the alternative reality Charmed Ones, attempt to vanquish him. Alas, alternative reality Cole, recast as Belthazor/Cole, is indeed vanquished at the conclusion of Centennial Charmed.

Should Cole have been vanquished at all in Long Live the Queen? Should the Charmed Ones have first sought to understand why Cole had gone totally demonic between Charmed and Dangerous and Long Live the Queen? Ljones has been probably the most vociferous advocate of that position and has generally regarded the failure of the Charmed Ones to investigate Cole's possession by the Source as a fatal chink in the Charmed Ones armor or claim to goodness. Others have blamed Cole for his failure to be forthcoming with the Charmed Ones. Still, others have noted that even if Cole had been forthcoming, it was exactly as if the Charmed Ones would have been receptive to yet another Cole excuse.

As the barbs fly back and forth, occasional bombastic statements emerge that demand further analysis. One such allegation was that Cole had never really murdered people as the Charmed Ones apparently had (Cole, when possessed by the Source). Prompted by a comment by Maracev, vandergraafk analyzed in detail the three killings committed by Cole in Sam I Am and Centennial Charmed. Vandergraafk noted:

"I've thought about that one quite a lot. After Cole flings the two criminals against the wall, the one tries to reach for his weapon. Cole chooses to vanquish him with a fireball. That allows the patrons to escape. Next, Cole finishes off the other criminal who is cowering in fear. That was clearly unnecessary. Cole could have kept him locked up until the police arrived.

However, in terms of plot development, it was this kill, the murder of the second criminal, that represents Cole's crossing a line. Indeed, his scream emanates after the second vanquish. Avatar Beta (Power) and Avatar Force arrive and the teaser ends.
Indeed, Cole realizes he has crossed a line and worries that he will be more and more tempted to use his power to execute criminals.

When Phoebe confronts Cole after the second Avatar visit, she accuses him - unfairly, it seems - of having vanquished two criminals, who, although clearly guilty of murdering the barkeep and terrorizing/robbing the patrons, were nevertheless humans and worthy of non-vanquishment, i.e., presumably to be turned over to the criminal justice system.

Now, I know somebody is going to jump in at this point and claim that Phoebe betrayed her own principals in Hyde School Reunion. Again, let me state that the denouement of that episode is a complete and utter writing fiasco. Yes, it's a contradiction. And, no, it's completely unrepresentative of the Charmed Ones.

Cole never disputes Phoebe's principle. Rather, he admits to the vanquishes and indeed proclaims that he rather enjoyed it, believing that Phoebe really wanted him to say that as well. Why not? Cole knew that Phoebe already thought him evil. Didn't his act simply confirm her suspicions? Cole, though he stated that he found pleasure in the vanquish, clearly did not, as he implied when he told Phoebe to leave after proclaiming that she had no clue what torment was afflicting Cole. Indeed, as I will argue, Cole was conflicted by the very realization that he had vanquished out of spite, something he never had wished to do, since it reminded him all too well of his bad days as Belthazor (Black as Cole).

When Phoebe threatens to vanquish him if he ever does anything like that again, Cole sees a possible way out. Construct a scenario whereby the Charmed Ones are compelled to vanquish him. It almost succeeds in that his ruse gets the Charmed Ones past the put of no return: they have a potion (three) and are ready to confront Cole. Alas, Phoebe figures out Cole's desire to engage in suicide by witch. She will not vanquish Cole on his concocted terms. Rather, it will be on her terms, the ones she has outlined earlier in the episode.

Unfortunately, for Phoebe, she is no longer in a position to stop Cole's suicide by witch. Cole telekinetically calls the vial to him and allows the vanquish to unfold. Alas, the Charmed Ones do not have the power to vanquish Cole with these potions. Strangely, Cole suggests, without naming them directly or answering Phoebe's question, the Avatars knew this all along. Well, maybe they did, and maybe they didn't. The point is: Cole could not be vanquished on this basis by the Charmed Ones. Perhaps the three potions combined with the entire magic of the Warren line might work, but that wasn't invoked. And, the Charmed Ones never even considered that possibility. (Did the writers somehow forget Charmed and Dangerous, as well as Long Live the Queen?)

The murder of the car crash victim by Cole in the hospital during The Importance of Being Phoebe has really puzzled me for some time. It seems entirely out of character for Cole. And, it seems to be entirely pre-meditated. Let me argue, now, that I believe it was Cole's desire to force yet again another vanquish by the Charmed Ones. Now, Cole had really crossed the line and murdered an innocent on terms that demanded a vanquish, terms that Phoebe had laid out in Sam I Am.

Once the drama of the two Phoebes is resolved and Cole knows that the woogy will not turn Phoebe evil, his fallback position reveals itself: Phoebe will cast him into the nexus and that will accomplish Cole's real goal: suicide by witch! Phoebe does not hesitate to invoke the Nexus spell and Cole is swallowed up by the Nexus only to be spit out forthwith. Alas, Cole has been thwarted even in this attempt. Now, Cole cannot be vanquished either by the three potions or the Nexus spell. His only option is to become an Avatar and use their unlimited power to re-write history.

In conclusion, I suppose I would be less inclined to generalize from these three "murders" in the final four episodes. Clearly, it was murder number two that pushed Cole across the line and murder number three was merely a means to an end: his own vanquish as punishment for what he had done in Sam I Am: murder number two."

[vandergraafk]

In seeking to lay the foundation for this debate, it is a bit difficult to point to an exact beginning. In the Charmed Cafe broadsides were fired against Phoebe for this or that and against Cole for this and that. Ostensibly, all of this was conducted during a debate over Phoebe and Cole's breakup. At some point, Paige became a target for meddling in Phoebe's affairs and somehow getting Cole all riled up. At this point, vandergraafk pleaded for a bit of understanding on Paige's part. Vandergraafk wrote:

"Let's be fair to Paige. My goodness, it wasn't THAT hard to read Phoebe. Still, Paige was not always right in her methods and her analysis sometimes was wanting. At least, she accepted the fact that she could be wrong and apologized profusely (113 times and counting!).

Paige was the only one who wondered where the Source's powers had gone. She was the first to suspect that something was amiss with Cole. She paid a price for her suspicions by nearly dying in the Fifth Halliwell.

After all that had transpired during Season 4, Paige grew extremely worried about Phoebe. Maybe she cared so much because it was Phoebe who befriended her first and with whom Paige had so much in common. She loved Phoebe as a sister much, much sooner than she developed such feelings for Piper!

Now, can we really blame Paige for trying to understand why Phoebe was drawn to all things mermaid? Yes, she suspected that this had everything to do with Cole (who wouldn't?), but she got it all wrong, a fact she confessed to Cole in A Witch's Tale Part 2. And, her instincts were right to try to help Cole (by stripping him of his powers) in Sympathy for the Demon. That she was too inexperienced to know that Fear could be manipulating all of this pales in comparison to the utter non-chalance and indeed bitter rejection with which Phoebe and Piper greeted Cole's request for assistance.

Heck, Paige nearly lost her life (again) to save Phoebe's in Y Tu Mummy Tambien. What more can we ask of Paige?"

That assuaged a marienmad who noted, "So true. So, back to blaming Phoebe for being too blind!" But, ljones would have nothing of this. She focused her wrath on Paige, as she wrote:

"If Paige was suspicious that Cole was the Source, why didn't she investigate on how he could have become the Source? Or what led him to become the Source? Why did she limit her thinking? Was it because Paige judged Cole based upon his past and assumed that he had deliberately wanted to become the new Source?"

[vandergraafk]

Drewsgal couldn't wait to jump on the trash Paige bandwagon as she venomously wrote:

"If we are going to blame any one for Cole becomming the source then blame Paige! She made him mortal- Not litarally cos she didnt hit him with the potion, but she created it! It was her fault that the potion was around for that Crazy Women to go and throw it at Cole! PAIGE PAIGE PAIGE!

Saving Phoebe in Y Tu mummy Tambian my bum! She didn't go on her own accord, to was tricked there by COLE!!!! He planned the whole thing! So lets not try and make Paige out to be some kind of hero, cos that is one thing she is not! She simply likes to be center of attention. And if you don't agree with that then tough! Its my opinion, and i will tell you why i think that!

She is the one that goes all wonder women most of the time and dives head first into situations that aren't her buisness.
Example- okay then!
1) Richard and his family! She couldn't just walk away from that could she NO!
2) A witches Tail- She went to Cole and told him where to go- when she had no idea how Phoebe truly felt about him

How can anyone say that Season 8 was the Billie show, when we had 3 years prior of Paige taking Center Stage, You may not agree with that statement, but there will be others that do! That aren't blinded to her true nature! Paige is a......Paris Hilton of Charmed. She always wanted to be in the spotlight. Ok Pheoeb liked her fair share, but only when it came to lust! She never went off like Wonder Women acting all might and all powerful."

Maracev took issue with the whole Paige center stage nonsense for seasons 5, 6, and 7, while Paige channeled her outrage through vandergraafk. Totally besides herself, Paige practically screamed:

"PARIS HILTON! You've got to be kidding. Okay, so I blew up a potion and my hair turned red for a year or so. Have you thought about how much that would have cost me in a hair salon, have you? But, blonde! How could you even think that I would ever go blonde. Besides, not even the Stillwell ... (she hears Phoebe yell: Stillman! They were the Stillman sisters. Whatever, Paige replies.) sisters could be as dumb as Paris freakin' Hilton. I am really, really.... Well, I am really, really upset."

Now, as vandergraafk regained control of his person, he wrote:

Paige's suspicions are pooh poohed by Piper, a reaction that she regrets later on when she confesses that she (Piper) ought to have heeded Paige. However, Paige only had a suspicion. As a newbie (to magic), Paige had to overcome the usual bias against rookies. "Oh, what do you know. We've been doing this for a lot longer than you." Even so, Paige's suspicions were undermined by the events in the Fifth Halliwell. Once she was possessed by the powers implanted by the Brokers, Paige would have had to convince Piper that she was not only sane and accurate in reporting what she had seen and how she was explaining the phenomena, but she also had to convince Piper that she wasn't under demonic influence when these events transpired. So, even if we allow that Paige might have investigated her suspicions further and developed a more persuasive case as to the real nature of Cole when possessed by the Source, she was never going to be a strong advocate. Her rookie status and partial delirium were sufficient to undermine her credulity."

[vandergraafk]

Whitelightertony now got on board to challenge ljones' blaming of the Charmed Ones for failing to investigate Cole's possession by the Source. He wrote that it was wrong to blame the Charmed Ones:

"Because Paige, Piper, and Phoebe all thought The Source was dead. They saw what appeared to be him dying in "Charmed & Dangerous."

So Paige had no real evidence to theorize that Cole had absorbed The Source's essence. She only sensed that he possessed evil within him, and so she probably assumed he'd been turned evil through some other unknown circumstances."

Before vandergraafk could express his essential agreement with whitelightertony, there were a few issues to be cleared up regarding Paige, Phoebe and a certain power stripping potion that was first used in Black as Cole and was concocted by Phoebe. Later, Paige will use this recipe to concoct another potion to save Cole in Sympathy for the Demon.

"Well, I will quibble with "left behind". Phoebe lost her purse, the one containing the power stripping potion, when she was captured by Sykes upon re-entering the manor. Sykes intended to harm Phoebe in order to lure Belthazor out. We, the audience, are supposed to wonder whether the potion bottle contained the power stripping potion or the Belthazor vanquishing potion which was also at play in the episode since they needed it to vanquish Sykes.

And, since I am quibbling, I suppose I should challenge the casual use of "Cole had allowed the Seer to use him". What choice did Cole really have? From Phoebe's premonition, he already knew that the Source would attack the sisters in the attic. The Seer surely confirmed the validity of that premonition and heightened Cole's concern by letting him know that the Source had gone mad by absorbing powers via the Hollow. If ever a man were going to sacrifice himself for his mate, then I can find no greater example of such ... Besides, Cole missed the action anyhow. He was clearly maladjusted to life as a mere mortal. The thought that any magical assistance, however temporary he hoped it might be, must have seemed appealing to a frustrated crime fighter.

As I've argued elsewhere, the Seer orchestrates these events anyhow. She certainly creates the impression that it was the sisters who vanquished the Source. Thus, it is understandable that Piper and Phoebe have no doubts as to his demise. Paige does not question whether the Source has been vanquished. She only wonders where his powers have gone if the sisters had theirs returned upon the banishment of the Hollow back to its lair.

Whitelightertony is correct in suggesting that there was no basis for the sisters to do as ljones demands they do at this juncture. And, even when Paige knew for certain that Cole had become evil - The Fifth Halliwell - her credibility, as I argued above, was not rock-solid. Piper didn't wish to deal with any of this. First, Phoebe's slippage to the dark side was not as apparent as we the viewers could clearly see. Second, she was still traumatized over Prue's death. Third, how could she take sides in a growing dispute between Phoebe and Paige?

However, I would have hoped that by Which Way Now?, the sisters might have stopped to ponder what had happened to Cole, especially after Phoebe had made a new connection with him. Or, the sisters could have opened up this question at any time during Season 5. They (the writers) didn't, and that's what leaves me somewhat disconcerted. Though I don't share ljones' antipathy towards the sisters because of this failure on the part of the writers, I do understand why it's in play."

[vandergraafk]

If my posting accomplished anything, it at least brought the focus back on to Cole. Ljones dissected my lengthy post and commented as follows:

Quoting vandergraafk, ljones examines the following: "What choice did Cole really have? From Phoebe's premonition, he already knew that the Source would attack the sisters in the attic. The Seer surely confirmed the validity of that premonition and heightened Cole's concern by letting him know that the Source had gone mad by absorbing powers via the Hollow." In her pithy response, she noted: "There was no guarantee that the Source would kill the sisters. The Seer's vision was only a possibility, not a gurantee. Cole had allowed his fear of losing Phoebe to make a bad choice."


Again, quoting vandergraafk, ljones focused on the following:

"Whitelightertony is correct in suggesting that there was no basis for the sisters to do as ljones demands they do at this juncture. And, even when Paige knew for certain that Cole had become evil - The Fifth Halliwell - her credibility, as I argued above, was not rock-solid. Piper didn't wish to deal with any of this. First, Phoebe's slippage to the dark side was not as apparent as we the viewers could clearly see. Second, she was still traumatized over Prue's death. Third, how could she take sides in a growing dispute between Phoebe and Paige?" This elicited a slightly longer rebuke from ljones:


"The Charmed Ones have no real excuse for killing Cole without bothering to use their brains to find out what had really happened to him. They don't. People like Whitelighter Tony want to believe they do, because they are the show's protagonists and Cole is a character who had first started out as evil. Because of this, many fans believe it was okay for Cole to be killed with extreme prejudice. The Charmed Ones had allowed their bigotry, their fear and dislike regarding Cole and his past to make the decision to kill him.

Just as Cole had allowed his fear of losing Phoebe to allow the Seer to talk him into using the Hollow."

[vandergraafk]

Whitelightertony took his scalpel to ljones' comments. Quoting ljones, whitelightertony noted that even though "(t)here was no guarantee that the Source would kill the sisters. The Seer's vision was only a possibility, not a gurantee. Cole had allowed his fear of losing Phoebe to make a bad choice.", ljones should at least acknowledge the possibility that the Source would attempt to kill the sisters. "Regardless of whether The Source was destined to succeed in killing the sisters, Cole knew from Phoebe's premonition that The Source would at least attempt to kill them in the near future."

Again quoting from ljones, whitelightertony vehemently objected to the misrepresentation of his thoughts. "People like Whitelighter Tony want to believe they do, because they are the show's protagonists and Cole is a character who had first started out as evil. Because of this, many fans believe it was okay for Cole to be killed with extreme prejudice. The Charmed Ones had allowed their bigotry, their fear and dislike regarding Cole and his past to make the decision to kill him." Not so, according to whitelightertony who vehemently protested:

"Wow, you sure love to put words into my mouth. Thanks for speaking for me.

Actually, the only times I felt it was okay for the sisters to vanquish Cole was:

A.) in "Long Live The Queen," when The Source's essence had taken over Cole's body and The Source was clearly going to use Cole as a vessel through which to kill Piper and Paige (and they didn't really have time to find a way to separate Cole from The Source, in the moment)

B.) in "Centennial Charmed," when Paige saw that Cole (who was no longer possessed by The Source, BTW) had altered the reality of the entire world (gee, and isn't that what everyone is so down on the Halliwells/Avatars for doing in Season 7?) to satisfy his own selfish desires, and would have killed a powerless Paige and Alternate Piper in the process."

[vandergraafk]

Examining a comment whitelightertony had made about the Charmed Ones in another Charmed Cafe thread, but one that applied equally here, vandergraafk noted:

"Whitelightertony, the only quibble I have with your suggestion that Cole confess all in Season 5 is that hardly anyone was listening. Let's see Phoebe didn't really care why Cole had gone bad. She just wanted this whole mess to be over with. Piper wasn't in the listening mood either, obsessing as she was with the coming baby (girl). Paige might have listened; but, since she had misread Cole so badly in A Witch's Tale, Paige wasn't exactly in a receptive mood. (I know your comment was in another thread, but it is appropriate here too!)

I agree that before Long Live the Queen there really was no basis for scratching beneath the surface to understand what had transpired with Cole. I wish the writers had explored the issue more thorougly!"

Ljones still would have none of whitelightertony's explanation. She wrote, "Actually they did. Instead, the sisters decided to go after Cole, following the death of their "innocent"."

Was this the innocent in The Importance of Being Phoebe? Which innocent are we talking about? As it turns out, it is the innocent from the AA meeting whose bike is "stolen" and who has been singled out for vanquish at Cole's demonic board meeting.

[vandergraafk]

At this point, it gets a bit confusing. Ljones covered all of her bases in this diatribe that followed the above discussion:

"Actually, when Cole/The Source finally entered the Wasteland's Realm, the Source's spirit had completely separated from Cole's body.

Cole's evil streak in Season 5 had more to do with an emotional breakdown over the end of his relationship with Phoebe. He was not the first on the show to take the road to darkness over an emotional inability to handle the loss of a loved one.

*Piper's emotional breakdown and desire for revenge over Prue's death led her to the Furies' interst in her. Piper already had to be on the verge of overwhelming darkness for them to choose her as a new Fury.

*Phoebe's rage and paranoia over Cole killing that witch in "Exit Strategy" (due to Raynor casting a spell on Cole) led her to be possessed by a Banshee.

*Prue's anger over the loss of her mother, Grams and Andy finally made her snap when those Seekers killed that Inspector Davidson . . . and she tried to kill one of the Seekers in a fit of rage. If Cole had not stopped her . . . who knows what would have happened to Prue.

The thing about Cole's "evil streak" in Season 5 is that although the sisters acknowledged that Cole's actions had more to do with his own emotional breakdowns, they decided to regard him as an evil dog that needed to be destroyed, instead of as someone who needed serious help. Yet, when the same happened to one of them or Leo in late S6/early S7, they took the time to help, instead of condemn."

[vandergraafk]

Drewsgal chimed in and a tit-for-tat discussion of how best Cole might have been helped in Season 5 ensued:

"But did Cole want help? No i don't think he did, he wanted vanquishing. That's why he did what he did in Sam I Am. He planned that so they would come after him."

Marienmad accepted that, but queried whether the Charmed Ones still ought to have helped him:

"Of course he didn't want help but that doesn't mean that he shouldn't be offered help. There are plenty of people who didn't want help but needed it and others offer it to them."

Ljones agreed, but then put the burden back on the Charmed Ones:

"Yes, Cole was suicidal. So, what are you saying? That because he was suicidal, the sisters were right to treat him as someone to be killed?"

Drewsgal noted in reply:

"No i am not saying that at all. But do you honestly think that Cole would of accepted the help. Cole is a proud man, we all know that, he wouldn't of accepted help, and it would of angered him more. Just like when Paige tried to vanquish him in Cenntinental Charmed ( god i know i can't spell).
They should of left Cole alone. They had tried to help him in Sympathy for the Demon, but it didn't work out."

Ljones again demurred and wrote:

"I don't agree. I think that Phoebe could have at least approached Cole without any hostility - if she was capable of it - and let him know that he needed help.

Piper didn't want her sisters or Leo's help during "Hell Hath No Fury". Yet, they helped her, anyway.


The reason Paige's plan in "Sympathy For the Demon" didn't work was that it was the wrong thing to do. And it was stupid . . . not only on Paige's part, but Cole's, as well."

Sharing her disdain for Paige, drewsgal agreed:

"Well i can't argue with that, Paige doesnt exactly lead with her head.

Phoebe could of done that true, but if your husband had tried to kill you for the 2ND time, would you really want to help him, i know i wouldn't. And in fact its more than twice- He straggeled her in Sirens Song, he tried to kill all three as Belthazar, He tried kill Paige in Sam I Am...the list goes on, so Phoebe did the right thing in not helping him, cos he didn't deserve it. Once a demon always a demon, as prue said!"

[vandergraafk]

Vandergraafk rose to Paige's defense as he noted:

"Paige's actions in Sympathy for the Demon weren't STUPID. That sounds like Piper talking. Yes, they were misguided and rash and were reflective of someone trying too hard on her own to rival Prue. But, STUPID? Hardly. Was Paige correct in trying to help Cole? Absolutely! Was it wrong for Phoebe and Piper to block her attempts. Absolutely! Isn't it curious that Piper does not even seem aware of her change in attitude at P3 when first she was leaning in favor of Paige's "help Cole" proposal, then suddenly backs away (when Barbas messes with her head)?

As for Cole, the events of Sam I Am and his introduction to the Avatars, put him perhaps on a path of no return. Yes, ljones, I am aware that people hell-bent on suicide may indeed be using that action as a final call for help. But, I don't think Cole ever really felt that he could be helped: not after the Charmed Ones' best potion failed to do the deed.

You are right to note, however, that Phoebe does not exactly wax sympathetic or even show empathy towards Cole when she discovers the true purpose of the events in Sam I Am. Rather, she states that when we vanquish you - and we will, implicitly, is suggested - that we will do so under our terms, not ones dictated by you (Cole). That doesn't exactly sound like someone who has heard the call of a person wishing to commit suicide by witch. She knows what it is - an attempt to commit suicide by witch - but cannot see what it may represent: a plea for understanding and perhaps a desperate plea for help!"

Surprisingly, ljones shared some of vandergraafk's sentiments:

"I agree with you, Vandergraaftk, except in one thing. I do believe that Paige's attempt to help Cole was stupid. I think that she was right to try to help Cole. But I think that her solution was wrong . . . and rather stupid. I don't think that removing his powers would have helped Cole. He is part daemon and part mortal. Cole - and to an extension - the Halliwells could have been mature enough to realize that being part daemon is what he is and that is one aspect of his identity that they all should have learned to accept.

Piper had commented twice that the difference between the Charmed Ones and those they battle were not their powers, but what they did with those powers. I don't believe that Cole's powers were "evil" because they used to belong to demons. Powers are powers - neutral in my opinion. The powers of a witch can be just as "evil" as those of a demon . . . if used for the wrong reason or the wrong intent. And the powers of a demon can be just as "good" as those of a witch . . . if used for the right reason or the right intent. I just wished that all of them - the Charmed Ones, Cole and Leo could have learned to realize this. Perhaps then they would have let go of their childish belief that Cole's "demonic" powers automatically made him evil.

Phoebe once told Cole that they could not remain together because he would always have evil in him. Poor Phoebe. She can be rather childish. What Phoebe failed to realize was that ALL OF THEM would always have evil within them. I'm not talking about "a little bit of the Dark Side". All of them had the potential to become monsters. Just as they had the potential to be decent. I'm not just talking about mortals (including witches) or Cole, because he was part human. I'm also talking about demons . . . if the show had allowed the writers to portray them in a more ambiguous light."

[vandergraafk]

After this interlude, whitelightertony sought to get us back on task. He quibbled a bit with my quibble when, after quoting me at length, he noted:

"Whitelightertony, the only quibble I have with your suggestion that Cole confess all in Season 5 is that hardly anyone was listening. Let's see Phoebe didn't really care why Cole had gone bad. She just wanted this whole mess to be over with. Piper wasn't in the listening mood either, obsessing as she was with the coming baby (girl). Paige might have listened; but, since she had misread Cole so badly in A Witch's Tale, Paige wasn't exactly in a receptive mood. (I know your comment was in another thread, but it is appropriate here too!)"

"I agree that before Long Live the Queen there really was no basis for scratching beneath the surface to understand what had transpired with Cole. I wish the writers had explored the issue more thorougly!"

My problem is that Cole didn't even try to explain. Sure, maybe none of them would have listened, but he made no honest attempt to inform them that The Source controlled most of his body during late-S4.

Instead, Cole just expected Phoebe to take a blind leap of faith and accept him back into her life without question."

Whitelightertony took exception to ljones's comment about the Charmed Ones' decision to go after the Source/Cole. Quoting from ljones, whitelightertony noted afterwards, "Actually they did. Instead, the sisters decided to go after Cole, following the death of their "innocent".

"Um, The Source (in Cole's body) clearly gave Phoebe an ultimatum...he basically disclosed that he was going to kill her sisters, so she was either with him or against him."

[vandergraafk]

At this point, murkiness takes over as we now are asked to re-examine The Three Faces of Phoebe, events that happened before Long Live the Queen. Ljones reprises this for us in an attempt to discount earlier comments by whitelightertony.

My problem is that Cole didn't even try to explain. Sure, maybe none of them would have listened, but he made no honest attempt to inform them that The Source controlled most of his body during late-S4. (as Whitelightertony wrote)

Actually, he tried in "The Three Faces of Phoebe":

Cole: I just got back.
Phoebe: From where?
Cole: I had to, uh, get out of the house for a while, you know.
Phoebe: No, I don't know. Do we need to talk?
Cole: Phoebe, I... Ahh! (He holds his head.) d**n it!
Phoebe: What's the matter?
(She touches him but he pulls away.)
Cole: Uh, nothing. It's just a migraine, I gotta go.
Phoebe: Cole, where are you... (He walks away.) Cole


Um, The Source (in Cole's body) clearly gave Phoebe an ultimatum...he basically disclosed that he was going to kill her sisters, so she was either with him or against him. (again, whitelightertony)

"True . . . after the sisters literally took the trouble to sought him out and kill him. Instead of taking the trouble to find out what had happened to Cole. If any of the sisters or Leo had been in Cole's situation, I suspect they would have done exactly that."

Vandergraafk focused on the dialogue, which, he noted, indicates the opposite of what ljones perhaps intended:

"Just a question of literary analysis: but since you brought up the quote from the Three Faces of Phoebe, when Phoebe asks Cole point blank whether there is anything she should know, uh, he DOESN'T DIRECTLY or even INDIRECTLY attempt a reply. Yes, I know: the Source was in control. How exactly does this buttress your point, ljones? Au contraire, I believe it helps cement the point that whitelightertony and I have been making all along!"

Ljones pithily noted "Well Vandergraaftk, if you'll consider watching the episode again, you would see that the Source gave Cole's brain a little hurt on when the latter was trying to tell Phoebe what was going on with him."

Whitelightertony declared this episode irrelevant anyway. He noted:

"ljones, this is a moot point. The events of "The Three Faces of Phoebe" happened well before the joint vanquish of The Source and Cole in "Long Live the Queen."

My point is that Cole should have at least attempted to explain his possession to the sisters once he returned from the Wasteland in full control of his own body once again, in Season 5. But Cole never bothered to do this. He just expected Phoebe to forgive and forget."

He wondered also "Were Piper's and Paige's actions reckless in "Long Live the Queen"? Perhaps. But you must remember: they wanted their sister back. They wanted Phoebe to rescind her throne as Queen of the Underworld.

And The Source was clearly going to kill Piper and Paige, so Phoebe had to make a split second choice. She chose her sisters. Would you rather she have let Piper and Paige die, and remain Queen of the Underworld?"

Before ljones had a chance to reply, vandergraafk seconded whitelightertony's dismissal of The Three Faces of Phoebe, but noted, after agreeing with the dismissal:

"Which is okay with me. The scene you are referring to shows us the inner tension that Cole is experiencing. However, when asked point blank by Phoebe, he is incapable of replying because the Source is so much in control. I'm not faulting Cole. What could he really have done? From both the Seer and the Source, we are led to believe that Cole was putting up far more resistance than either had anticipated. Still, that resistance was not enough to overcome the Source's ability to suppress Cole when Phoebe confronted him point blank."

By now, even ljones agreed:

"I agree that Cole should have tried to tell Phoebe about his possession by the Source. But the question remains . . . would Phoebe and her sisters have bothered to listen to him? Or believe him? And even if he had not told them, haven't the Halliwells ever heard of the word . . . forgiveness? It seemed obvious that Cole felt bad about what had happened in Season 4. Yet, none of the Halliwells were willing to forgive him (and sometimes, people NEED forgiveness). I find this odd, considering their own actions in which they tend to dismiss, reason or easily forgive."

But whitelightertony remained skeptical when he noted "Probably not. But he never tried, so I have little sympathy for him. Cole is at least half responsible for his ultimate vanquish in "Centennial Charmed."

[vandergraafk]

After a further back and forth, vandergraafk finally noted:

"It seems like we keep slogging over the same territory. Cole had a credibility problem by Season 5. And, the sisters were not exactly in a receptive mode. At best, the time to do this was during Season 4 during the events that culminated in We're Off to See the Wizard. My reading of Cole suggests, however, that he was resigned to his fate and came to believe that Phoebe would play a large role in whatever twist of fate emerged. We know that Cole knew about Phoebe's dark past (except for the Woogie incident early on, but one he clearly must have mastered if we are to accept the premise of "The Importance of Being Phoebe". Did he always suspect that Phoebe's dark nature might push him, possessed by the Source, to the underworld once and for all? Was this why he was determined to evict the Source by giving his powers and throne to the Wizard? I hope we can at least agree that never once, while possessed by the Source, did Cole ever exuberantly embrace his "fate". He always was looking for an out. When Phoebe removed that by vanquishing the Wizard, the jig was up. Now, Cole had no choice but to embrace his destiny: his and Phoebe's.

Might there have been another way? Perhaps. But exactly how? We've noted that Piper ignored both what she saw and what Paige tried to convince her of until it was almost too late. Paige, as the rookie, never commanded enough respect or great enough clarity of explanation to convince Piper that she, Paige, was correct about Cole having turned evil. But, then, not even she, Paige, could have fully imagined what the Seer had really concocted."

[vandergraafk]

Now, ljones wants to come full circle and place the blame at Paige's foot. She wrote, "But Paige had been wrong that Cole turned evil in Season Four. He had been possessed. But Paige, who harbored a prejudice against Cole because of his past, had never bothered to consider this."