MOST POWERFUL WITCHES OF ALL TIME?

[vandergraafk]

It all began innocently enough. Someone decided to create Magic School perhaps because of the popularity of Harry Potter. Yet, the iteration of Magic School as depicted principally in Season 6 and 7 may have undermined the special status of the Charmed Ones.

To lay the foundation for this debate, I have included some background comments from the Charmed Cafe since the issue of Magic School surfaced (again) in a commentary on why or whether Prue taught Leo how to astral project.

Whitelightertony responded to a rhetorical question posed by ljones:

Why would Prue bother to teach Leo on how to astral project and not Piper and Phoebe?



Prue was probably, at least subconsciously, aware of the very real possibility that she might be the first Charmed One to die. So it was probably easier for Prue to confide in Leo, as her whitelighter, about her anticipation of such a traumatic outcome....it would have been much harder, emotionally, for Prue to go to Piper and Phoebe and offer to teach them to astral project, "In case I ever die."

I'm assuming, of course, that Prue teaching Leo to astral project, offscreen, was under the guise of "In case I ever die." from Prue's mouth.

It's also possible that Piper and Phoebe, at that point in time, just weren't quite strong enough, magically, to "learn" a supernatural ability...they'd only been Charmed for three years. By the time "Something Wicca This Way Goes" rolled around, Piper and Phoebe had been witches for seven years, and Paige for four.

Ljones didn't buy it, as she tersely replied in this brief commentary:

Prue was probably, at least subconsciously, aware of the very real possibility that she might be the first Charmed One to die. So it was probably easier for Prue to confide in Leo, as her whitelighter, about her anticipation of such a traumatic outcome....it would have been much harder, emotionally, for Prue to go to Piper and Phoebe and offer to teach them to astral project, "In case I ever die."


I don't if this sounds right to me.

[vandergraafk]

The explanation offered by whitelightertony changed a bit, as he replied to ljones:

I'm sure that she was possessive and protective of her astral projection power for most of Season 2 and early-to-mid Season 3...but by the time the events of "Death Takes a Halliwell" had transpired, Prue was probably examining her own mortality more frequently.

Sure, on the outside Prue was inclined to display her weakness of Pride in a headstrong and often-reckless manner, and she hated admitting her fears to people (lest such vulnerability rub off onto her younger sisters).

But I don't find it hard to believe that, as the threat from The Source became greater within Prue's consciousness near the end of S3, Prue began to feel slightly more helpless. I don't find it hard to believe that Prue would confide in Leo about her fears instead of Piper and Phoebe, because she didn't want her sisters to lose hope. Remember, there's a lot that goes on and is said offscreen between the characters that we're not directly witness to (anyone remember them vanquishing Sargon?).

Deep down, Prue probably realized she wasn't invincible (even though she often outwardly acted like she was). The Angel of Death taught her that - - Prue couldn't control what was ultimately meant to be. So it's not really much of a stretch that she chose Leo to "pass on" her power of astral projection to, just in case something permanently fatal happened to her. Besides, Piper and Phoebe might not have been emotionally ready to hear those words come out of Prue's mouth, especially at that point in time.

Again, ljones responded tersely:

I think that you guys are grabbing at straws here. I just cannot see Prue even bothering to teach Leo how to astral project, yet not bothering to teach Phoebe or Piper. She's not the type to favor a whitelighter over her sisters. And by the way, those two and Paige could have easily learned how to astral project on their own. Why didn't they?

Whitelightertony responded thusly:

I don't think she was necessarily "favoring" Leo over her sisters...she was just more protective of Piper and Phoebe, and reluctant to be as upfront about her innermost fears. It would have been awfully hard for Prue to try to explain to Piper and Phoebe why she was going to the trouble of teaching them to astral project, without invoking a deep conservation about her own reservations. Also, it could have taken Prue a lot of effort to teach her power to someone else, so she tried out her "magic-teaching" skills on Leo before approaching her sisters.


Quote:And by the way, those two and Paige could have easily learned how to astral project on their own. Why didn't they?



They got too comfortable, and didn't ever see the need to. There was always something-or-other distracting them in their lives...Piper-and-Leo's relationship roller coaster, Phoebe drowning herself in her work as a columnist, Paige taking temp jobs and running Magic School.

However, had Paige not reentered the work force and remained on her freelance path as "superwitch," I think she very easily could have mastered the full ability of astral projection on her own. She already found a way to temporarily astral herself, as we saw at the beginning of "Centennial Charmed."

[vandergraafk]

At this point, vandergraafk entered the fray and attempted to turn the argument around:

I am inclined to dismiss this whole teaching Leo stuff as nonsense. If, as Charmed Season 7 demonstrates, that powers are ultimately teachable, then why should Prue have had to teach Leo anything? Ms. Donovan does just about everything Prue could do when astrally projected except use powers. But, what powers did Ms. Donovan have? Who knows? And, the sisters, when astrally projecting themselves, don't use their powers except to cast a power of three spell. What Prue was able to do never figures into Something Wiccan. I'm inclined to classify the confusion as writer blockage. The writers ignored Charmed's own past and mythology once Magic School was called into being. Contradictions were never addressed and the fact that the existence of Magic School took the gloss off of the Charmed Ones was never acknowledged.

Whitelightertony dissected vandergraafk's comment and correctly pointed out that Paige used her powers while astrally projected in Something Wiccan.

I am inclined to dismiss this whole teaching Leo stuff as nonsense.



Sorry, but it's established fact/canon. Therefore, the only sensible thing to do is try to explain it within the context of the storyline.


Quote:If, as Charmed Season 7 demonstrates, that powers are ultimately teachable, then why should Prue have had to teach Leo anything?



Because astral projection isn't a natural whitelighter power, and Leo hadn't done it before.


Quote:Ms. Donovan does just about everything Prue could do when astrally projected except use powers. But, what powers did Ms. Donovan have? Who knows?



Mrs. Winterbourne taught astral projection to Ms. Donovan before going on sabbatical. And it's never undeniably stated that Mrs. Winterbourne or Ms. Donovan are witches. They could just be magical creatures of good who acquired the skill of astral projection through intensive training...the difference being that Prue was born with the power, so when astral projection manifested itself in Prue, she was able to master it more efficiently (since it was literally "in Prue's blood").

You're right -- aside from astral projection, they never told us what the exact nature of Mrs. Winterbourne's or Ms. Donovan's powers/magic were. Perhaps that's because Betsy Randle only appeared in three episodes, and Ann Cusack only appeared in two...so the writers didn't bother to develop their magical identities. At any rate, it's fun to speculate on what powers or magical backgrounds either character possessed...but it's possible that neither of them was born with the ability to astral project (in fact, we know that Ms. Donovan wasn't, by her own admission!), the way Prue was.


Quote:And, the sisters, when astrally projecting themselves, don't use their powers except to cast a power of three spell.



To be fair: it was only the fourth time Phoebe had astral projected (fifth, if you count "Show Ghouls"), and third time Paige had astral projected. Plus, on all of the occasions when Phoebe and Paige had astral projected in past episodes, they did it with the assistance of a spell or potion. And it was the first time ever astral projecting, for Piper!

And Paige did use her transkinetic powers while in astral form at Magic School....but again, the difference was that, by this point, Paige had been a witch for 4 years, and arguably exercised her powers/magic a lot more extensively than Prue had done by the time of Prue's death in "All Hell Breaks Loose" (at which point Prue had only been a witch for 3 years).

It's very likely that, had Prue lived on into Season 4, she also would have learned to use telekinesis while in her astral form.


Quote:What Prue was able to do never figures into Something Wiccan. I'm inclined to classify the confusion as writer blockage. The writers ignored Charmed's own past and mythology once Magic School was called into being. Contradictions were never addressed and the fact that the existence of Magic School took the gloss off of the Charmed Ones was never acknowledged.



I don't see what Prue's threshold of astral abilities had to do with the action in "Something Wicca This Way Goes." Prue taught Leo how to transform himself into astral form. Leo, in turn, taught that ability to Piper, Phoebe, and Paige. That didn't mean that Piper/Phoebe/Paige/Leo became equally as powerful as Prue....in fact, they probably had to work even harder than Prue did to transition into astral selves, since it wasn't any of their natural powers (and it would have required a great deal more concentration from any of them than it would have from Prue).

As we saw, Prue was ultimately able to astral project in the blink of an eye, at will; Piper/Phoebe/Paige/Leo never exhibited that degree of mastery when astral projecting.

[vandergraafk]

Vandergraafk's reply was both a thank you and an opening salvo in the war on the quality of story lines in Seasons 6, 7 and 8:

Good points, some. However, to cite canon is a cop-out. All we have is an assertion that Prue taught Leo how to astrally project, and this assertion occurred at the most convenient of times (from the standpoint of the writing staff): during Something Wiccan when the girls were at their most desperate. There is no direct evidence from seasons 1 through 3 that Prue ever demonstrated astral projection to Leo. Why would she? He could orb at will. Remember: an astrally projected self, one with the abilities of Prue, can defend itself. However, the sleeping body remains vulnerable to attack. Orbing is so much more efficient.

Yes, Paige did use telekinesis when astrally projected to lob a book at Zankou. Thanks for the correction. Still, if we allow that Ms. Winterbourne taught Ms. Dononvan and perhaps neither was a witch, but maybe a magical being, astral projection just becomes another mundane power. True, maybe some magical beings will learn it quicker than others. But, the point remains: the gloss is off of the Charmed Ones. They are just three among many. Perhaps the only thing separating them from anyone at Magic School is the ability to cast power of three spells. To me, that represents a notable shrinkage from the promise laid out in Something Wicca.

The problem to me remains the grafting on to Charmed of Magic School. It was not well thought out. Some of the stuff done there, e.g., the conjuring of Lady Godiva, seems even to exceed Charmed abilities. Why? Why? Why?

Dissection was on order again, as whitelightertony addressed individual points.

All we have is an assertion that Prue taught Leo how to astrally project, and this assertion occurred at the most convenient of times (from the standpoint of the writing staff): during Something Wiccan when the girls were at their most desperate. There is no direct evidence from seasons 1 through 3 that Prue ever demonstrated astral projection to Leo.



That's because it happened offscreen. We never see Prue take her final breaths of life after Shax threw her through the wall, but we still know that it happened, based on what the characters say.


Quote:Why would she? He could orb at will. Remember: an astrally projected self, one with the abilities of Prue, can defend itself. However, the sleeping body remains vulnerable to attack. Orbing is so much more efficient.



I don't think Prue taught it to Leo so much for his own benefit as it was so that she get in the practice of instructing her sisters how to astral project, or at the very least, so she could pass it on to indirectly through Leo (in case she didn't survive).

You're right, Leo didn't need astral projection to help him be a better whitelighter. But even compared to full teleportation, astral projection can have its own benefits, however subtle. For example, orbing attracts attention with its bright sparkly lights, thereby risking exposure. Astral projection can be explained away more easily to mortals (remember in "Show Ghouls" how Elise simply thought Phoebe and Drake were "sleeping" from food poisoning?).


Quote:Yes, Paige did use telekinesis when astrally projected to lob a book at Zankou. Thanks for the correction. Still, if we allow that Ms. Winterbourne taught Ms. Dononvan and perhaps neither was a witch, but maybe a magical being, astral projection just becomes another mundane power.



So does that mean Phoebe shouldn't be able to utilize empathy or premonitions, since other humans can be empaths or psychics? Or that Paige's telekinetic abilities are somehow unspectacular, just because we've seen many other witches, demons, warlocks, and miscellaneous magical creatures use telekinesis throughout the show's eight seasons?


Quote:True, maybe some magical beings will learn it quicker than others. But, the point remains: the gloss is off of the Charmed Ones. They are just three among many. Perhaps the only thing separating them from anyone at Magic School is the ability to cast power of three spells. To me, that represents a notable shrinkage from the promise laid out in Something Wicca.



I guess I don't see how it makes the Charmed Ones any less formidable or unique than they were in Season 1. Even in the pilot episode, Jeremy possessed a few very showy powers, as did the rest of the demons whom the Charmed Ones began to encounter. Matthew could clone powers. Hannah possessed pyrokinesis. Gabriel's telekinesis rivaled Prue's. The Grimlocks could open portals. Tempus could turn back time.

The Charmed Ones are extraordinary because of their Charmed magic (including the Power of Three)...but if you're looking for magical powers unique to only these three sisters and no one else in the history of the magical universe, then you were watching the wrong show for eight years.

[vandergraafk]

Vandergraafk hit back even harder:

And, astral projection HAS a decided downside. In a sleeping state, anyone is vulnerable to attack. Orbing is much quicker. Consider how many times Leo avoided a darklighter arrow by orbing. (Yes, I know that there are other times when he was able to orb away in time. That's less a function of orbing than it is of the need for the writers to create a dramatic problem: Leo dying, Paige dying. Whatever!) On balance, astral projection offers much less than orbing.

Having said that, I am guilty of comparing apples to oranges if we limit the discussion to Leo. Leo has relatively few powers. Okay, he can glam, conduct heat and move objects telekinetically. Paige and Chris, as whitelighter/witches, can do more. For them, astral projection would allow them to use their witch powers, if we assume each exploited astral projection as fully as Prue did. But, wait: what's the advantage here for Chris and Paige? Is astral projection faster than orbing? Does astral projection avoid passing through another plane of existence and potentially obviate the danger of landing in an alternate reality (Centennial Charmed)? If so, then I will grant that astral projection could add to a whitelighter/witch's powers.

As for Charmed magic, power or whatever special name we wish to associate with the power of three, my point is not to compare demons, warlocks and witches. Worthy opponents should have formidable powers, and you have enumerated many of the attributes that a variety of warlocks and demons brought to the table. That's not at issue.

What is at issue is Charmed status with respect to the entities that inhabit Magic School. By definition, warlocks and demons are excluded. The episode - Bare Witch Project - crystallizes the problem when a student is able to do much more with a conjuring spell than any of the Charmed Ones. If the Charmed Ones truly are the most powerful witches of all time, then I have a real problem when a mere student can exceed their abilities. The fact that Ms. Winterbourne and Ms. Dononvan can astral project is a minor complaint, but one that is mitigated when one considers Prue's ability to use her powers while astrally projected. Paige, too, quickly acquired that ability. And, I will allow that eventuallty Piper and Phoebe could too.

The problem of Magic School indirectly led to the Jenkins sisters sage, for now there are powerful witches who might indeed be more powerful than the Charmed Ones. Even to suggest that is a betrayal of the promise of Season 1. Very critically, the writing staff started messing with some of the charm of Charmed by, for example, allowing Barbus to be vanquished by a potion (in A Call to Arms). Now, it's true that I can explain this away by suggesting that Barbas truly wasn't vanquished since no mere potion can vanquish fear. Fear always returns. Of course, we know he didn't. How sorely he was missed during the Avatar story arc and the Ultimate Battle!

[vandergraafk]

Whitelightertony wasn't finished, even though it appeared as if he were conceding some of the main points:

Quote:And, astral projection HAS a decided downside. In a sleeping state, anyone is vulnerable to attack. Orbing is much quicker. Consider how many times Leo avoided a darklighter arrow by orbing. (Yes, I know that there are other times when he wasn't able to orb away in time. That's less a function of orbing than it is of the need for the writers to create a dramatic problem: Leo dying, Paige dying. Whatever!) On balance, astral projection offers much less than orbing.



Yes, in terms of making a quick escape, it offers less. But orbing makes its possessor uniquely vulnerable in that whoever possesses the ability to orb is also vulnerable to a darklighter's arrow (look at what happened to Eames). If a witch gets shot with a darklighter's arrow, all it does is cause their skin to be punctured.


Quote:For them, astral projection would allow them to use their witch powers, if we assume each exploited astral projection as fully as Prue did.



Don't you mean "as fully as Prue would have been able to"? The only episode where Astral Prue could use witch powers was in "Primrose Empath."


Quote:What is at issue is Charmed status with respect to the entities that inhabit Magic School. By definition, warlocks and demons are excluded. The episode - Bare Witch Project - crystallizes the problem when a student is able to do much more with a conjuring spell than any of the Charmed Ones. If the Charmed Ones truly are the most powerful witches of all time, then I have a real problem when a mere student can exceed their abilities.



I agree...Duncan shouldn't have been able to use that spell. It made no sense whatsoever.


Quote:The fact that Ms. Winterbourne and Ms. Dononvan can astral project is a minor complaint, but one that is mitigated when one considers Prue's ability to use her powers while astrally projected. Paige, too, quickly acquired that ability. And, I will allow that eventuallty Piper and Phoebe could too.



I still don't see how it's a problem? We never saw Astral Mrs. Winterbourne or Astral Ms. Donovan use any other powers while in their astral forms. In fact, did we ever directly get to see Mrs. Winterbourne astral project?


Quote:The problem of Magic School indirectly led to the Jenkins sisters sage, for now there are powerful witches who might indeed be more powerful than the Charmed Ones.



I don't think it was ever explicitly stated that Billie and Christy were more powerful than the Charmed Ones...just that the Jenkins sisters' combined powers forced the Charmed Ones to meet their match in strength. Billie wasn't necessarily "destined" to rescue Christy...so, just like Piper and Leo's love was a product of their own free will, the rise of the Ultimate Power wasn't necessarily preordained.

[vandergraafk]

vandergraafk offered this riposte:

Yes, orbing does carry a risk. However, the ONLY whitelighter who ever succumbed to a darklighter arrow was Nathalie, victim of Eames in Blinded by the Whitelighter. On balance, orbing works rather quickly unless the writers don't wish it to work quickly. Examples abound.

There's no reason why Leo was wounded in Love Hurts. He could easily have orbed aside. Daisy had already left the scene. Ah, but the writers needed Piper to discover Leo's secret.

Leo could have orbed out of danger in Charmed and Dangerous. He doesn't. Ah, because having Leo orb to safety would have lessened the dramatic effect.

Still, I'll accept your point that orbing has its downside, too.

Maracev, my short list of Leo's powers was not meant as a put-down. Rather, when compared to one of the Charmed Ones, Leo has lesser abilities. Probably the most obvious example of the difference is seen in All Halliwell's Eve when Leo has to do a quick read with respect to the Grimlocks. He projects the image of a true rookie.

Of course, whitelightertony, Prue never fully realized her ability to use her witch powers while astrally projected. Thus, of course we could add "as fully as she would have been able to" had she lived. The point still remains: Prue evinced advanced ability with respect to astral projection, an ability that Paige showed us in Something Wiccan.

You're of course correct about both Ms. Winterbourne and Ms. Donovan. And, I thought I qualified my comment by making this a minor complaint. Duncan, as you note, IS a problem. It never should have happened because his actions did upstage the Charmed Ones.

Look: I actually think the concept of a Magic School is quite interesting. Apparently, there are quite a few magical entities among us. Besides, didn't the demonic side have its school system as evidenced in Season 3's Wrestling with Demons and Season 5 academy where Tyler was to be schooled. Where I do have a problem is with the way Magic School was fleshed out.

The way the writers used a concept called Magic School was not well thought out. Powers are taught. We hope, but are never really told, that those who are learning these powers at least are magically receptive to their acquisition. Matthew, the boy in Forever Charmed demonstrating his ability to teleport a book in Leo's orbing class, is in fact Leo's grandson. Thus, Matthew ought to have been capable of teleportation and it would make sense for him to receive instruction in this regard. To understand the importance of this observation, compare Matthew's studied learning to Paige's off the cuff learning to orb between rooms that we see in The Three Faces of Phoebe. Would Paige have learned to master orbing even faster, had she been able to attend Magic School? Undoubtedly.

Look at in this manner, perhaps you can now appreciate why I am troubled by Ms. Donovan's acquisition of astral projection. We know absolutely nothing about Ms. Donovan except that Ms. Winterbourne taught her to astral project while our mild mannered librarian is secretly studying to become a drama teacher. Was she magically receptive to astral projection? Or, could anybody in Magic School learn to astral project. I'll accept that the Charmed Ones were receptive to astral projection. I'll even stipulate that each Charmed sister could use her power when astrally projected.

Notice, however, that we - as devoted Charmed fans - are analyzing Magic School much, much more than I think the writers ever did. "So what?" you might ask. Well, as I suggested above and in a previous posting, some of the articulated aspects of Magic School undermined the status of the Charmed Ones. This trend, the undermining of the status of the Charmed Ones, continued into Season 8 when even the possibility that there MIGHT be sister witches who were as powerful as the Charmed Ones sent shudders down my spine. Yes, it was a cute conclusion to an eight year long series: sisters vs. sisters. Cute, but not Charmed.

The seduction of Billie, the duping of Billie, or the dumbing down of Billie - however we might call it - remains unconvincing. (The fact that she's BLONDE has no bearing on the matter, despite repeated put-downs of Blondes in Charmedverse. See further: the Power of Three Blondes, etc.) The Ultimate Battle boggles the mind, not with respect to the intensity of the emotions or the action itself. Rather, it is the stupidity that Billie evinces with respect to the Charmed Ones. How could she possibly be so blinded by Christy? For me, it's absolutely not credible. Now, had Fear been brought back to terrorize Billie into thinking that white was black, then I could understand the Ultimate Battle. Oops, the writers had prematurely gotten rid of Fear via a silly potion. (Or, was it the WB cutting back the budget for Season 8?)

[vandergraafk]

Whitelightertony tried again:

Thus, of course we could add "as fully as she would have been able to" had she lived. The point still remains: Prue evinced advanced ability with respect to astral projection, an ability that Paige showed us in Something Wiccan.



Paige and Prue were both Charmed Ones, so Paige's quick study of using her powers while in astral form is something I think can be chalked up to her level of experience. Paige devoted a lot more time and energy to learning the Craft than Prue was able to.


Quote:We know absolutely nothing about Ms. Donovan except that Ms. Winterbourne taught her to astral project while our mild mannered librarian is secretly studying to become a drama teacher. Was she magically receptive to astral projection? Or, could anybody in Magic School learn to astral project.



We never saw any specific evidence one way or the other, but I would theorize that you need to be at least somewhat magical in order to be taught astral projection by another magical creature. So, perhaps Ms. Donovan was a mortal with some passive core magical power (perhaps she was a telepath?), and that made her a quick study when Mrs. Winterbourne offered to teach her how to astral in and out?

vandergraafk concluded with this terse reply:

Yes, and you've just made my point. We must speculate. I think your speculation is quite logical and reasonable. But, we should not have been left to speculate this much, especially not with Duncan leaving the Charmed Ones in the dust!

[vandergraafk]

Elder reopened the question about the Charmed Ones in the Charmed Cafe. Here is his query, reproduced in full:

This may have been discussed a bit in various places...

What (or who) told the sisters they were "The Charmed Ones"?

How do we know that Phoebe's three daughters are not TCO?

The book is as much theirs as it is anyone else's from that family. The book could be talking about Phoebe's kids and not the sisters from the series.

or maybe not.

The Book never specifically says "Piper, Phoebe and Paige/Prue" are TCO.
I find it hard to believe that in the entire history of that family they never had a point where there were all sisters in a branch of the family. Even Grams says "300 years and not a male in the bunch"

Several contributors offered their thoughts in response. The first to weigh in was Maracev:

The prophecy talks about the culmination of the warren legacy when 3 daughters are born into the family and Prue, Piper and Phoebe are the first time it happens. Obviously, we know they have the power of three because we saw them display it, so, why the doubt now after 9 years?

Whitelightertony added, in part:

Even Grams says "300 years and not a male in the bunch"



Also, I think Grams meant "not a male witch in the bunch."

The family tree from earlier seasons showed male offspring in the Warren line. We just need to assume that either they were male "carriers" with no powers (like Billie's parents), or they possessed passive powers and never told their family about their magic (hence, the Warren women just assumed that the male children in their family couldn't be witches or didn't have the ability to practice magic).

Also, in "Baby's First Demon," Leo and the Charmed Ones talk about male first names in the Warren family tree, when contemplating a first name for the at-that-point-unnamed Wyatt.

vandergraafk responded briefly and attempted to deflect the question ever so slightly with this contribution:

Indirectly, All Halliwell's Eve answered this question. Melinda Warren was able to prophesy the existence of three powerful witches because Charlotte, her mother, had told her in fact of their existence. As I indicated in another thread, the Charmed Ones are midwives to their own prophecy. If they are not sent back in time, their line of witches will potentially be wiped out or raised as warlocks. Since the Elders did send them back in time and the Charmed Ones were able to "save" baby Melinda, the prophecy can unfold as Melinda will articulate it. Prue, Piper and Phoebe are the Charmed Ones. The more interesting question is how Paige can replace Prue. Melinda couldn't have foreseen that!

[vandergraafk]

Whitelightertony addressed the side question vandergraafk's previous comment put into play:

The more interesting question is how Paige can replace Prue. Melinda couldn't have foreseen that!



It's a magical loophole. Prue, Piper, and Phoebe became the Power of Three when Phoebe was born; that predated Paige's conception. So Paige's birth couldn't reverse the constitution of the Power of Three. Paige's presence in the universe could only provide a way for the Power of Three to potentially be reconstituted, if Prue, Piper, or Phoebe ever died (which Prue obviously did).

Melinda Warren didn't necessarily foresee Paige's birth, or even any of the events following 1977. When Melinda foresaw the constitution of the Charmed Ones, she could have had a premonition of Prue, Piper, and Phoebe becoming the Power of Three as young girls, right after Phoebe's birth.

The only time we know of when Melinda has a premonition beyond the 20th Century is in "The Witch is Back," when she foresees many future generations of Halliwell children. And even that doesn't necessarily tell Melinda about Paige's existence. For one, even if Melinda physically saw Paige in that premonition, she wouldn't have any idea who Paige was! Melinda simply could have attributed the sight of Paige (if she even saw Paige in her premonition) as being a cousin or distant relative. Secondly, since Melinda was in her spirit form when she had that premonition, it could have conceivably been a much weaker vision than if she had gotten a premonition while she was a living mortal with magical powers.

Elder pondered vandergraafk's use of All Halliwell's Eve as a means of answering the question previously posed by Elder, noting that:


Is it ever implied in that episode of the sisters being sisters?
I know at the end, Phoebe says they are related to the new kid, but until then...nothing.

[vandergraafk]

Vandergraafk developed his position more clearly in this posting in the Charmed Cafe:

But the broader question remains. Who exactly are the Charmed Ones and are they really the "most powerful witches of all time"? By extension, we could add: what will the Charmed legacy be and how will this affect the Grand Design? None of these questions was directly answered in Charmedverse, though many clues as to their resolution abound.

Let me tackle this issue and these questions once again from the perspective of All Halliwell's Eve where we observe the original Charmed Ones acting as mid-wives to their own line of witches. In that episode we get a hint that Charlotte herself must have had a predilection towards witchcraft, though it appears to have been rather rudimentary and did not involve any special "supernatural" powers. The witches in her coven used what nature provided and cast spells in order to perform their magic. Melinda, on the other hand, apparently acquires or is born with three magical powers, powers that she will hear told reside in three sister witches who are the most powerful witches of all time.

Certainly, Melinda cannot know, even via second-hand knowledge, that these sisters indeed have these powers. Not once were the Charmed Ones able to demonstrate the use of these powers in front of Charlotte or her coven. We can suppose that during the moment of crisis when the coven wonders what their spell had brought to them: the three most powerful witches of all time or three frauds masquerading as witches, poseurs who didn't even have a grasp on the mere rudiments of magic, but were "quick studies" as Phoebe proudly proclaimed. The fact that the sisters do master the rudiments in short order and do protect the birth of Melinda surely convinces the coven that maybe they indeed have conjured the three most powerful witches of all time and not three poseurs.

We can equally imagine that the fact that these visitors from the future surely indicated that they were sister witches who had certain magical powers, powers they could not access in the past since the lineage which gave rise to these powers had not yet become established. Elder is correct: the Charmed Ones do let slip that they might be related to Charlotte.

From the perspective of Charlotte and her coven, we can imagine further that this incident might have given rise to a legend which culminates in the prophecy of Melinda Warren that there will come a day when three sister witches will emerge, three witches who will be the most powerful witches of all time. Indeed, this will become a self-fulfilling prophecy in so far as her birth into the hands of good witches has been secured by that very prophecy.

Now, what are we to make of this claim? First, we know from Chris Crossed and Imaginary Fiends that the Charmed Ones are not the most powerful witches of all time. Clearly, Wyatt packs a lot more punch that even Piper does. Second, Melinda Warren apparently makes her prophecy without any knowledge of the upper stratum of magic. For her, there don't appear to be any Elders. And what is the role played by the Grand Design in her limited view of magic? Does Melinda even know that such a thing as the Grand Design even exists? Her prophecy, then, is no more than a statement of historical, albeit supernaturally influenced, fact, recorded in her lineage's Book of Shadows.

Let there be no mistake. The Charmed Ones are indeed powerful witches. They have succeeded in vanquishing a long list of baddies: the Source, Zankou and perhaps the TRIAD. Temporarily, Good has gained a significant advantage, an advantage that may become more permanent and more significant as succeeding generations of Halliwell/Warren witches proliferate and survive well into old age. Ultimately, that should have an impact on the Grand Design and raise questions about the viability of an "eternal balance" between Good and Evil, a balance that the Warren witches have very obviously upset.

Given, though, that vanquishing demons does not mean the permanent eradication of the demonic essence corporealized in a given demon, the demonic side will have an opportunity to reorganize in order to reestablish the balance between Good and Evil. It will not be easy since the imbalance will persist as long as the Warren line of witches exercise their tremendous magical powers with due diligence and do not allow absolute power to corrupt absolutely. We have clearly seen one possible future where a corrupted Wyatt allows Evil to once again flourish and perhaps tilt the balance toward Evil. Given all of the magical creatures and hybrids emerging from the Warren line of witches: witch/cupid; witch/Elder; witch/whitelighter, their power is sure to grow, along with the concomitant temptation to use Warren power for evil ends.

[vandergraafk]

Some have complained that it's not fair that Prue's telekinetic power was shared by Leo with respect to his ability to orb an object from one location to another. However, Charmed power is an agglomeration of abilities. Thus, Prue, for example, has access to or will have access to all aspects of telekinesis. Non-Charmed witches will not. In the Charmed Cafe, vandergraafk expressed this as follows:


Okay, I don't recall Melinda Warren as being Charmed. Therefore, the fact that she had only simple versions - or restricted versions of a particular power - is besides the point. It is my contention that what makes the Charmed Ones special is that each Charmed One has amplified powers. Prue doesn't just have telekinesis. She exhibits psychokinesis, as well as astral projection. In addition, she is able to reverse the momentum of an incoming object beyond her ability to deflect them. Individual witches could have one of these powers. With the exception of Billie and perhaps Christy - and, believe me, I was not happy about this - only the Charmed Ones had a full panoply of powers. That's what made them Charmed.

For example, the boy in Secrets and Guys did have psychokinesis. But, he did not possess telekinesis. Eames, the crafty warlock, collected a bevy of powers from individual witches.

That the Charmed Ones did not have access to all aspects of their powers is obvious. Prue does acquire astral projection until Ms. Hellfire. Piper acquires her "exploding" power at the end of Season 3. With the exception of the visionquest, Phoebe's precognitive powers never advanced that much. Certainly, they should have evolved along the lines of the Seer or Kira. But, it appears that we were left in the dark about this. Likewise, Paige's witchy powers should have evolved to include astral projection with the Prue-like ability to impart momentum to objects while astrally projected (Something Wiccan). But, for Paige, she also had to evolve as a whitelighter and to acquire the ability to move herself from one location to another - metastatic orbing; the ability to transports others with her (The Three Faces of Phoebe) and to move objects - sight unseen - from one location to another.

Whether the Elders influenced the growth of these powers is debatable. Certainly, they had control over whitelighter powers. Whether they could "give" the witches a power boost or extension is open to question. I know Leo asserted as much when Piper received her new powers, but that explanation was not used when Prue gained the ability to astral project.

Yes, I realize that some ARE disappointed that Leo shares a power similar to Prue - teleportation via orbing. However, I believe it important to look at Charmed powers in the aggregate. Telekinesis, as exhibited by Prue, covers a range of abilities. Her abilities should not be compared to those of a whitelighter, but rather to other supernatural witches. Whereas individual witches might display one of Prue's telekinetic abilities, they don't possess all of them unlike they've been stolen, a feat accomplished by the warlock Eames.

[vandergraafk]

Again, the question of the Charmed Ones comes up again and again. In the Charmed Cafe, ljones made an aside which once again brought the need for explanation of Melinda's prophecy into sharp relief. In the Charmed Cafe, ljones noted:

"Why do the Charmed Ones or the Power of Three have to continue to exist in the first place? The supernatural world had existed long before they had arrived on the scene. It never made sense to me that the Earth or the magic world was in danger of being overran (sic) by demons, because the sisters had decided to give up being witches for a while between Season 7 and Season 8."


Vandergraafk responded as follows:

"If destiny had so ordered that there arise three powerful sister witches, the most powerful witches of all time, then one might rightly question why they were needed. Was the demonic underworld threatening to tilt the balance between good and evil demonstrably towards its favor for a lengthy or even permanent period of time? Did such a threat necessitate the existence of three powerful sister witches to emerge as a counterbalance?

Each of these and other similar grave questions can be avoided, however, if one simply regards Melinda's prophecy as merely self-fulfilling. That is, she had already learned from her mother and those in her mother's coven that the three most powerful witches of all time had gone back in time to save baby Melinda from the demonic underworld. If this is the case, then there is no need to posit a demonic threat to tilt the balance permanently.

Nor must we even acknowledge that the Charmed Ones are the most powerful witches of all time. At the time of the threat to baby Melinda, there was no Wyatt nor any other Halliwell offspring who might claim to be as powerful as or more powerful than the Charmed Ones. The claim merely rests on the assumption of Charlotte's coven that they asked for and received the help of the most powerful witches of all time.

What is, of course, a danger is that the Charmed Ones, having vanquished the Source, defeated the TRIAD, dispensed with Zankou and banished Barbas yet again had weakened the demonic underworld considerably. However, this might only be a temporary phenomenon. Indeed, Chris Crossed points to a reality where the offspring of the Charmed Ones might themselves constitute a new evil force that would restore the balance between Good and Evil or tilt it momentarily back in favor of Evil."