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Post by vandergraafk on Dec 4, 2006 18:30:48 GMT -5
Ljones, speculating in the Charmed Cafe, launched this interesting discussion in response to a query from Elder. Let's start with Elder's question, then the myriad responses that followed. Participants in the discussion were ljones, elder, triad, whitelightertony and vandergraafk.
I have a really dumb general question: Where do the powers of the sisters come from?
When Piper gets her exploding power, she says that the elders should take it back (which sounds like the powers are granted or given by the elders) However, in the doctor with monkeys episode, the powers are stated to be in the blood.
Does this mean that the elders activate the powers in the blood? And if the elders got any say over it at all, why wouldn't they just deactivate the powers if the monkeys had them? Would the Piper monkey get to blow stuff up too?
Are the powers given by elders, are they in the bloodline of the family or both?
Before commenting, let me just say that no questions are dumb. But some are really, really interesting. In the event, I responded as follows:
Elder, you've raised a truly vexing question. I'll answer in parts since I have no way of assessing the relative contributions of each. The sisters' powers stem from their Warren heritage, the location of the manor atop a spiritual nexus, the Book of Shadows, powers bestowed upon them by the Elders, their bond as sisters. No order should be presumed in this partial list. Worse, powers that they do possess seem to get stronger with time and/or experience. Is that yet another source of power: time itself?
Triad thought it was an equally difficult question and offered this interesting response:
This is a tough question. Well, we know from Astral Monkey that anyone who had the sisters' blood in them will ultimately die, or at least self destruction. The blood is meant only for the sisters because the Warren line spent generations to be powerful enough for the Prophecy to be completed. I don't think the Piper Monkey would be able to develop the molecular combustion power, since it would mean it needed to have a lot more experience with the power, which needs time. And with the blood kind of acting as a poison to anything besides the Charmed Ones, I wouldn't think it could develop new powers unless the certain sisters has already obtained it, like when Prue monkey could astral project; thus having the second power in the blood.
As for the Elders, I always thought they granted access to the powers, when the sisters were ready. With the Nexus and Charmed status, enhanced powers came to them a lot more rapidly. So, i think the Elders granted access to their powers. However, there are some time where I think they give the powers to the sisters. Such as Phoebe's levitation power. She has wanted this power from the first season, and eventually got it in Season 3. So, in a way, i also think the Elders give out powers as a sort of reward too, or to help enhance the strength of a witch for protection, such as Phoebe, who is usually pretty passive in her natural powers.
For the Blood line vs Elder, I think the given and granted powers are engraved into the sisters' blood. Like with Prue's AP, the monkey had AP. But I think the three base powers are given, and maybe the powers that cannot be touched by the elders, and are a birth right, and are things in which the Elders cannot govern over. The Charmed Powers are only affected within the bond (Power Outage) P3 spells (Wicca Envy) The Book of Shadows (Something Wicca this way Goes etc etc) and by beings higher than the status of the Elders (The Tribunal) If one thinks about it, at least one person within the Warren/Halliwell line has one of the three base powers, and that person would be the one who continued to bring the Charmed generation closer and closer, like Past piper, who had the present Piper's power. So if anything, I think that the base powers are given by a higher being who over powers the Elders.
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Post by vandergraafk on Dec 4, 2006 18:36:35 GMT -5
Ljones took this in a completely different direction with this short response:
My personal theory is that the Elders may have deliberately tampered with the bloodline of the Warren family, in order to create a magical weapon to be eventually used against the Source.
Whitelightertony agreed and commented as follows:
ljones, I agree with your theory on the Elders tampering with the genetics of witches.
I also think that when Piper received her power of combustion in "Exit Strategy" and then demanded that the Elders "take it back," she meant that she wanted them to bind that half of her powers while leaving her freezing power intact.
vandergraafk would have none of this, so I posted the following comment:
What evidence is there to suggest that such tampering occurred? True, Piper blames the Elders for her increase in powers. Yet, why should we believe Piper? Initially, she thought her powers had gone wonky. Then, after being assured by Leo that this was a natural progression in her powers, she blames the Elder and wants to reverse this natural progression. And, while we are on th subject, let's be precise. Piper's powers are best described as the ability to accelerate and decelerate molecular motion. She doesn't have the ability to freeze time at all. And, as we know, some of her adversaries can overcome her power to slow down motion.
Seen in this light, the ability to "blow things up", in reality, the ability to accelerate molecular motion, is a natural complement to her ability to decelerate motion. The Elders could no more bestow this power on her or even, pray tell, tamper with the Warren blood line.
As for Phoebe, she did have her powers suspended; but, as the result of a council composed equally of representatives from good and evil, not the actions of the Elders. Indeed, one might argue that the Elders, if they had such power to add or remove powers, should have used their powers to rein in the sisters under other circumstances.
Still, it is a worthy debate. Maybe we need to revisit how Prue got her power to astral project, Phoebe her power to levitate, and how Billie got any powers at all!
Now, it's true. I expanded the query from one of blood tampering to the Elders' intervening at all. And, as my comments suggested, I didn't think much of the thesis that the Elders intervened a lot, and certainly not by tampering with the blood line. ljones indirectly responded to my challenge by commenting on a previous comment, as she wrote:
Judging from 3 things:
*Piper's desire that the Elders remove her second power
*That their powers are in the blood ("Astral Monkey")
*They have entries in the Book of Shadows that should not be there
*The Elders had originally view their defeat of the Source as their "destiny"
I can only assume or theorize that the Elders had manipulated the Warren bloodline.
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Post by vandergraafk on Dec 4, 2006 18:43:08 GMT -5
Vandergraafk upped the ante by commenting on the three bits of evidence cited that led to the assumption that the Elders had manipulated the Warren bloodline:
To paraphrase Leo: "Which time?" Which time did they defeat the Source? After Charmed and Dangerous, the sisters thought they had defeated the Source. If the Elders were excited and shared this conclusion, then more fool them. Once again, the Elders don't seem to know everything. Heck, they can't even figure out that the Titans will kill many of them later, that Gideon will go bad, that Leo killed an Elder, who the Avatars are, etc. etc. Why should they know what the sisters' destiny is?
Worse: they didn't even know about half-sister Paige. What, they weren't looking when Patty got pregnant? Did they even know who the original P3 were? Nor apparently are they aware of the Marks line of whitelighter/witches in merry olde England!
As for Piper, I would hardly rely on her complaints as evidence that the Elders had tampered with anything.
As for the Book of Shadows, this shadowy entity may have spells placed in it by the Elders or maybe even by Warren witches. Certainly, Grams has something to do with the ever-changing nature of this Book. What specifically did the Elders do to the book that tampered with the Warren line of witches? I'm at a loss to explain.
Okay, I'll accept that perhaps some of the power of three is found in their bloodline. However, that doesn't mean I accept the screwy biology of Astral Monkey. How is this evidence that the Elders messed with the Warren bloodline?
Now, maybe the Elders did act to preserve the Warren line of witches (in All Halliwell's Eve) when the Charmed Ones were sent back to rescue Charlotte, mother of Melinda Warren. Perhaps that's tampering, but I can't see that as anything but beneficial.
Elder responded with a query that took the argument to the plane where I wished the debate to unfold:
Could it be that a base power is in the bloodline but any powers after that are elder activated?
Which led me to come back with this rather lengthy reply:
Are we even certain that Elders activate powers?
For instance, we know from That 70s Episode that Grams bound the sisters' powers until much later. Yes, that caused problems with Nicholas, but unblessing the ring reversed that problem. When Grams passed away, the binding spell was broken. But, the sisters still did not receive their powers, not until Phoebe read the incantation in the Book of Shadows when the three sisters were gathered in the same place, under a full moon, etc. Nowhere in this scenario do the Elders play a role.
When Paige received her powers, again the sisters were all assembled. This time, though, no incantation had to be chanted. The mere interlocking of the three sisters arms and hands in the manor under the chandelier was sufficient. The same was true in Centennial Charmed. What role did the Elders play in this?
God only knows how Billie got her powers! Scary thought, I know. Since she was estranged from her parents - and there was no indication that she was close to her grandmother from whom she apparently inherited the power potential - did the Elders activate these powers? If so, it was pretty ridiculous for them to do so and later to not deactivate them when it was obvious that Billie was being bamboozled.
I believe it is in the Crimson Spell (I know the books are not strictly speaking part of the show) the young witch receives her powers through a ceremony on her thirteenth birthday. The Elders seemed to play no role.
All in all, I am rather confused, especially since baby Wyatt had powers from the womb. And, young Piper and young Prue (in That 70s Episode) also had access to their powers presumably from birth on. So why wouldn't Paige?
It might be argued that the Elders knew that the three Ps were going to be the Charmed Ones (highly doubtful, if you ask me), so maybe they allowed Prue and Piper to have their powers before Phoebe is even conceived. Or, maybe the Warren witches had powers that developed automatically. If the latter is true, then, why didn't Paige's powers manifest themselves from birth onward. Surely, she would have blurted out at some time for some object to be brought near to her. I mean: in Something Wicca, Prue merely has to think about the cream for it too be slid towards her without having to deliberately move the cream towards her!
There is no evidence to suggest that Paige's powers were ever bound by Patty or Sam or even Grams. (But maybe they did, for that's the only explanation I can come up with that will explain the absence of powers for adolescent Paige.)
In a two-part reply, whitelightertony dissected my comment, provided commentary and ultimately agreed with me on at least one point:
Quote:Worse: they didn't even know about half-sister Paige. What, they weren't looking when Patty got pregnant? Did they even know who the original P3 were? Nor apparently are they aware of the Marks line of whitelighter/witches in merry olde England!
Grams and Patty could easily have cast a spell to cloak Patty's pregnancy from the rest of the world...including the Elders.
As far as the parents of Simon Marks in England...they probably hid him, and told Simon not to use his powers or he would capture the Elders' attention. By restraining himself from orbing, Simon may have stayed off the Elders' radar.
Quote:God only knows how Billie got her powers! Scary thought, I know. Since she was estranged from her parents - and there was no indication that she was close to her grandmother from whom she apparently inherited the power potential - did the Elders activate these powers? If so, it was pretty ridiculous for them to do so and later to not deactivate them when it was obvious that Billie was being bamboozled.
Different witches probably come into their powers at different rates, and different times in their lives. Most likely, Billie's powers simply didn't manifest until her late-teens. It's very possible that, since emotions affect one's powers, Billie's emotions prevented her from manifesting her powers up through Billie's mid-adolescence. On the other hand, witches who were as powerful as the Charmed Ones began developing their powers from birth. Maybe the fact that Billie's parents were mortal "carriers" might also have contributed to Billie's late magical blooming?
Quote:All in all, I am rather confused, especially since baby Wyatt had powers from the womb.
Wyatt, as an individual, was way more powerful than Billie...or almost any other infant witch.
Quote:And, young Piper and young Prue (in That 70s Episode) also had access to their powers presumably from birth on. So why wouldn't Paige?
Because Paige wasn't born until after the incident with Nicholas. I'm sure that Grams was with Patty when Paige was born, and Grams bound baby Paige's powers before Paige had even turned a day old (to protect Paige from Nicholas, as well).
Quote:It might be argued that the Elders knew that the three Ps were going to be the Charmed Ones (highly doubtful, if you ask me), so maybe they allowed Prue and Piper to have their powers before Phoebe is even conceived.
Prue and Piper probably began manifesting their powers on their own (years before Phoebe was even conceived)...whether or not Phoebe would be born wouldn't prevent Prue from having telekinesis or Piper from having temporal stasis. Phoebe's birth is only significant to Prue and Piper because it's what made the three of them into The Power of Three.
Quote:Or, maybe the Warren witches had powers that developed automatically. If the latter is true, then, why didn't Paige's powers manifest themselves from birth onward.
They probably did manifest once Paige was born, but Grams bound Paige's powers right before Sam and Patty brought baby Paige to Sister Agnes.
Quote:Surely, she would have blurted out at some time for some object to be brought near to her. I mean: in Something Wicca, Prue merely has to think about the cream for it too be slid towards her without having to deliberately move the cream towards her!
When her surrogate parents adopted her, Paige's powers would have had to have been bound already.
Quote:There is no evidence to suggest that Paige's powers were ever bound by Patty or Sam or even Grams. (But maybe they did, for that's the only explanation I can come up with that will explain the absence of powers for adolescent Paige.)
Why wouldn't they? It should be a safe assumption. Prue's, Piper's, and Phoebe's powers were bound to protect them from Nicholas. Why wouldn't Grams and Patty want to similarly protect Paige from the threat of Nicholas?
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Post by vandergraafk on Dec 4, 2006 18:49:26 GMT -5
The thrust of the argument - at least regarding Paige's powers - did not sit well with triad.
Quote:Because Paige wasn't born until after the incident with Nicholas. I'm sure that Grams was with Patty when Paige was born, and Grams bound baby Paige's powers before Paige had even turned a day old (to protect Paige from Nicholas, as well).
Prue and Piper probably began manifesting their powers on their own (years before Phoebe was even conceived)...whether or not Phoebe would be born wouldn't prevent Prue from having telekinesis or Piper from having temporal stasis. Phoebe's birth is only significant to Prue and Piper because it's what made the three of them into The Power of Three.
They probably did manifest once Paige was born, but Grams bound Paige's powers right before Sam and Patty brought baby Paige to Sister Agnes.
When her surrogate parents adopted her, Paige's powers would have had to have been bound already.
Quote:There is no evidence to suggest that Paige's powers were ever bound by Patty or Sam or even Grams. (But maybe they did, for that's the only explanation I can come up with that will explain the absence of powers for adolescent Paige.)
Why wouldn't they? It should be a safe assumption. Prue's, Piper's, and Phoebe's powers were bound to protect them from Nicholas. Why wouldn't Grams and Patty want to similarly protect Paige from the threat of Nicholas?
i still don't like the idea of Paige's powers being bound by Patty and Grams. Explain the incident of her parent's car crash. Paige orbed out of the darn thing. If Prue, Piper, and Phoebe could not display their powers while they were bound, I doubt that Paige could break through with her powers, since technically she is the youngest out of the bunch. But then again that is only for her "witch" powers. Remember day when the blonds took over? Paige's power to orb was not taken. So it must mean that her orb power is directly from her White lighter side and not necessarily from her witch-side, maybe because of different properties Also, remember Phoebe also displayed powers from the womb. The Premonition of the sisters coming back in time, and to complete the Kill Nick spell.
Dec 2, 2006, 6:44pm, Elder wrote:I am not one to examine the series very much so that's why I ask these questions...hoping that folks can give some clue as to where the answer may be found. Such as this one:
Was the Nexus able to be tapped into by any magical being? Could/should the evil witch Tuatha (from "that old black magic") tapped into its power? I don't recall many episodes where the Nexus/Shadow was even talked about, so it wasn't like the sisters needed to go into the basement before every battle and gets a power boost from the Nexus...it just was there. If that's the case, why can't evil tap into its power when at the Manor? Say for example, Shax, Jeremy...and other evil dudes?
And the thing about Phoebe leads me into this. Phoebe was born in the Manor; thus maybe having a birthright for the Nexus helping to sisters. This probably affects all the sisters because she also completed the Triangle of the "Original" Charmed Ones. So in a way, Phoebe may have been the connection that started the whole Charmed Ones having the nexus on their side. As for the Demons and Warlocks, they do not have that connection with the Nexus, where as the girls have lived in the Manor for most of their lives, plus the Phoebe thing. On the other hand, it might be that the Charmed Ones were such a Great force of Good (back in the day) they automatically had the nexus on their side, where someone like Cole Zankou and even The Source could have fought for the Nexus, because they were invincible, or a Great force of Evil. So the nexus may be torn by the Great forces at work.
Whitelightertony provided this rejoinder:
Quote:i still don't like the idea of Paige's powers being bound by Patty and Grams. Explain the incident of her parent's car crash. Paige orbed out of the darn thing. If Prue, Piper, and Phoebe could not display their powers while they were bound, I doubt that Paige could break through with her powers, since technically she is the youngest out of the bunch. But then again that is only for her "witch" powers.
Remember day when the blonds took over? Paige's power to orb was not taken. So it must mean that her orb power is directly from her White lighter side and not necessarily from her witch-side, maybe because of different properties.
Well, it's possible that Grams and Patty could only have bound Paige's ability to manifest witch powers.
And we saw that fear was the emotion that initially triggered Paige's ability to orb, even before she became Charmed. So, given what we saw of Paige's youth (how she was a headstrong individual), she probably didn't get scared very often. The exceptions being her spontaneous orbing in the back of her parents' car when they had their car accident, and when she and Shane were attacked by Shax on the rooftop.
It's possible that when Paige was a little girl, there were a few other occasions where she got scared and orbed, but no one else was around. Of course, Paige might have been so young at the time that she didn't realize what had just happened (that she'd orbed in place).
Quote:Also, remember Phoebe also displayed powers from the womb. The Premonition of the sisters coming back in time, and to complete the Kill Nick spell.
Well, it's also possible that Patty displayed the ability of stationary orbing (through Paige) while pregnant with Paige.
Or, when Paige was born, maybe Grams and Patty cast a separate spell that specifically suppressed any of Paige's whitelighter powers...they could have written a "clause" into the spell that allowed Paige to orb only if she was in a life-threatening situation.
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Post by vandergraafk on Dec 4, 2006 18:51:52 GMT -5
Vandergraafk finally chimed in with the following:
Whitelightertony: thank you for examining each part of my comment. I'm glad that you came to the same conclusion as I did, namely, that Grams must have bound Paige's powers at birth, especially since she would be adopted by a non-magical family who would not have the first idea what any child with powers was all about. I just hope you got the gist of my argument, namely, that the Elders were hardly involved in any of this.
In other words, triad, it's the only conclusion that makes sense. As for Paige's orbing ability, it was established in Charmed Again, Part 1 and in A Paige from the Past, that Paige had the ability to orb. She unwittingly employed this when confronted with an extremely fear-inducing situation. Afterwards, she would have had no way to explain what had happened and may simply have repressed the memory out of guilt over her adopted parents' death.
Now, unfortunately, the series writers screwed this whole notion completely up in A Witch in Time and Centennial Charmed. Paige cannot possibly have her whitelighter powers (to orb and to hear the Elders, etc.) by anyone casting a How To Dispossess a Witch spell. Paige ought to have been able to orb from the fireball thrown by Baccara. For dramatic effect, however, the writers chose a silly solution (wiping out both Paige and Phoebe).
In Centennial Charmed, Paige knows she cannot orb objects to her (witch power of teleportation). Yet, she surely must still be able to orb. She tries to sneeze because in her mind she has associated sneezing and instinctual orbing. Her forced sneeze does not, however, lead to an orb. She erroneously concluded that she cannot orb, when, in fact, she never ever tries to deliberately orb in this otherwise fine episode.
Elder, as for the NEXUS, you are correct that it was only used in certain episodes. And, the NEXUS was not always depicted in the same way. The woogeyman of Season 1 gives way to the black particle cloud that Cole and Zankou absorb (The Importance of Being Phoebe and Scry Harder respecitvely). The NEXUS itself, as Zankou noted, is neither good nor bad. It is power pure and simple. Yet, the guardians of the manor under which resides the NEXUS (a point equidistant from the five spiritual elements, i.e., the intersection of five lines emanating from these spiritual points,. (But even the series screwed this up too since the five spiritual elements are not Wiccan, but Chinese. Worse, the highest point is wrongly given for the Bay Area. Whatever!) The Warren witches are guardians of the NEXUS. But, anyone born into the manor has an even greater connection to the NEXUS (Phoebe, as related in Season 1's Is There a Woogey in the House). Remember Cole's classic line from The Importance of Being Phoebe. If evil taps into the Nexus, then evil will spread to the politicians, etc. Phoebe, too, will become evil and then Cole will have the only thing he really, really wants: Phoebe by his side.
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Post by vandergraafk on Dec 4, 2006 18:53:15 GMT -5
Elder had some other questions regarding the Nexus which are addressed in the Nexus thread.
Was the Nexus able to be tapped into by any magical being? Could/should the evil witch Tuatha (from "that old black magic") tapped into its power? I don't recall many episodes where the Nexus/Shadow was even talked about, so it wasn't like the sisters needed to go into the basement before every battle and gets a power boost from the Nexus...it just was there. If that's the case, why can't evil tap into its power when at the Manor? Say for example, Shax, Jeremy...and other evil dudes?
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