WHO ARE THE ELDERS AND WHAT ARE THEY TRYING TO DO?

[vandergraafk]

The Elders - or, the Founders, as Leo initially referenced them - constitute an integral part of Charmedverse. But, who are they and what role do they play in Charmedverse. Clearly, they are not witches. Some may have become Elders by serving as exemplary whitelighters. Age may or may not play an important role, however. There are young Elders, as well as Elders of any age. Among the Elders, though, age may play an important role. The Council of Elders, the governing body of Elders, may be comprised of senior Elders.

As for their powers, these may be limited or quite broad. Gideon had immense powers rivaling those of witches. He could make himself invisible, manipulate space and time between different planes of reality, throw lightning bolts, and so on. Leo, too, packed a pretty impressive punch as he was able to shoot bolts from his hands. Other Elders seem limited in their abilities. In Witches in Tights the Elder about to retire seems defenseless in protecting himself from the demon attempting to steal his powers.

Supposing for the moment that the Elders do have tremendous powers, to what extent can they predict and manipulate future events? Though they may sense danger, it is reasonably clear that the Elders are not omniscient. Oftentimes, they know as much as the Charmed Ones or even less. Important facts - such as the birth of Paige - may be disguised from the Elders. They may not be able to make sense of impending events, even ones that pose great threat to the Elders (attack of the Titans).

[kat29]

Leo had more power as an Elder, that electricity bolt power he had was pretty impressive although I wasn't aware of any other powers he had that he didn't already have as an Elder. I am not entirely sure what the Elders do other than try to figure out what is going on in the Underworld.

[vandergraafk]

I am going to stake out a truly radical position. Both Gideon and Leo are exceptions among the Elders. On the whole, the Elders should not have any special powers. They are not witches and never were. Rather, their role is to watch over those who have special powers. As a group, they may choose to enhance a witch's power, strip a witch of her powers, or provide a witch with new, complementary powers. They have this power because their role is supervisory. Witches who do not abuse their powers and put them to good use should be rewarded. Those who succumb to temptation need to be taught a lesson. Under certain circumstances, the Elders may create a time portal to teach a lesson or to help maintain the fairness of the engagement between good and evil.

Now, Gideon possessed fantastic powers. His acquisition of these may very well have been the result of dabbling in the powers of witchcraft exhibited by his many students and the legends contained in the many books. That he acquired these powers made him dangerous. That's why he crossed the line and tried to wipe out Wyatt. Leo succumbed to the temptation as well in his desire to avenge the death of his son. Until then, Leo had managed to keep the vast powers he achieved when saving the Elders from death at the hands of the Titans in check. The desire for vengeance was too powerful to resist and he too crossed a line, a line that made him vulnerable to the Avatars.

Elders cannot and should not have witch powers.

[vandergraafk]

A commentator in Charmedones.com offered the following opinion:

Season six was also the season the Elders went from having mental powers to having major active powers. In the past, the Elders needed the sisters's powers to do the fighting. In the season five finale, the Elders couldn't orb or defend themselves. Once we saw the Elders, including Leo, using more advanced powers than the sisters had, it again made me wonder what was so special about the Charmed Ones. The Power of Three spell, rarely used in later seasons, was about all they had that differentiated them from other witches and the Elders. This continued through season seven, where everyone seemed to have more power and knowledge than the sisters, and into season eight, culminating in Billie, and not the Charmed Ones, being the Ultimate Power.

To which vandergraafk replied:

In Season 6, we only have Gideon exercising "witch-like" powers. That could have been explained, given the temptations of Magic School. But, Gideon never EVER should have been accorded such powers. Or, the impression should NEVER EVER been floated that his powers were typical of those exercised by the ELDERS. As you cogently point out, it undermines the whole credibility of the premise regarding the Charmed Ones.

Gideon's powers might have been excused, as could Leo's acquisition of similar powers. But, in Season 7, matters are made worse when now other Elders get into the power act. Once in a Blue Moon destroys any attempt to excuse Gideon's and Leo's powers and really destroys the special status of the Charmed Ones. And, where are these powers exhibited: in Magic School. There might still be a way out of this conundrum: the very existence of Magic School imbues the Elders with powers that they otherwise do not have. But, that is a less than satisfactory resolution of a problem caused principally by the notion to make Charmed "Harry Potter" friendly!

[vandergraafk]

Perhaps, though, we should begin at the beginning. In Season 1's Secrets and Guys, Leo is caught hovering by Phoebe as she strolls into the living room where Leo is changing a light bulb on the large chandelier. Later, Leo sits down to explain to a perplexed, but suspicious Phoebe that he is a whitelighter. (Ironically, Leo is holding a light bulb in his hand that luminates when he confesses that he is a whitelighter. Cheesy, I know!) In the event, Leo indicates that he is a messenger who serves as a link between a group of elder whitelighters known as the FOUNDERS and nascent witches. He further states that he is sort of a guardian angel, but suggests that he will not always be around. (Thank goodness he did hang around the sisters after season 2!) So, the Elders are elder whitelighters who may or may not have specialized knowledge about immediate and distant threats and who may or may not have special powers (lightning bolts, opening time vortices, etc.). As we will soon learn however, they tend to interfere much too much and they are beholden to a set of intrusive rules that may or may not be found in the Whitelighter Manual. Oh well!

[vandergraafk]

It's been a long time between posts. Ample time for reflection has been provided. Prompted by a comment made by whitelightertony in the Charmed Cafe who wrote the following (see below), I felt it was time to begin to dissect the Elders. Ostensibly, paragons of Goodness - after all they are dressed in white - the Elders, upon closer inspection, seem less like guardians of goodness than nosy relatives always seeking to impose their own viewpoint.
In the event, here's what whitelightertony had to offer:

"Vandergraafk, to illustrate my point, allow me to use Avatar Leo in S7 as an example:

Leo accepted his transformation to Avatar status both to save the lives of Piper and Phoebe, and, subsequently, because he thought he would be making the world a better place. Up until he saw that the Avatars planned to "eliminate" anyone who didn't fit into their Utopia, he remained fairly consistent in his motivations and mindset (with occasional uncertainty).

Once Leo's secret was out and everyone knew he was an Avatar, his morality was viewed in different ways by different factions.

--- The Elders viewed Leo as "Evil" because he had betrayed them.
--- Zankou and the Underworld viewed Leo as "Evil" because his goals conflicted with their interests.
--- the Charmed Ones viewed Leo's morality shift as a "gray area," because they were undecided on what to make of the Avatars and because Leo was family to them and they were so personally close to his situation
--- the other Avatars viewed Leo as "Good" because he appeared to have embraced their agenda
--- Brody saw Leo as "Evil" because he believed the Avatars were threat to the rest of the world

However, magically speaking, Leo also possessed dual identities.

--- he still possessed the powers and privileges of a whitelighter (orbing, healing, his other whitelighter powers, and presumably, access to the heavens), meaning he possessed "Good" magic
--- he also acquired all the powers available to Avatars, making him "Evil" from the perspectives of anyone who viewed the Avatars as evil (or "doubly Good," from the perspectives of those who viewed the Avatars as good)

Okay, now put aside Leo in early-to-mid Season 7.

Substitute any other character in any other season who experienced a shift in their morality and in their threshold for magic (either power advancements, power regressions, or power morphing) in a given situation. Then analyze how other factions within the Charmedverse would have viewed that particular character in that specific context."

My response focused on the sufficiency of this example in order to establish the original thesis, namely, that there are differences in the moral positions of the various entities in Charmedverse, at least in the way whitelightertony wishes to explain this.

"Vandergraafk, to illustrate my point, allow me to use Avatar Leo in S7 as an example:

Leo accepted his transformation to Avatar status both to save the lives of Piper and Phoebe, and, subsequently, because he thought he would be making the world a better place. Up until he saw that the Avatars planned to "eliminate" anyone who didn't fit into their Utopia, he remained fairly consistent in his motivations and mindset (with occasional uncertainty).

Once Leo's secret was out and everyone knew he was an Avatar, his morality was viewed in different ways by different factions.

--- The Elders viewed Leo as "Evil" because he had betrayed them.
--- Zankou and the Underworld viewed Leo as "Evil" because his goals conflicted with their interests.
--- the Charmed Ones viewed Leo's morality shift as a "gray area," because they were undecided on what to make of the Avatars and because Leo was family to them and they were so personally close to his situation
--- the other Avatars viewed Leo as "Good" because he appeared to have embraced their agenda
--- Brody saw Leo as "Evil" because he believed the Avatars were threat to the rest of the world

However, magically speaking, Leo also possessed dual identities.

--- he still possessed the powers and privileges of a whitelighter (orbing, healing, his other whitelighter powers, and presumably, access to the heavens), meaning he possessed "Good" magic
--- he also acquired all the powers available to Avatars, making him "Evil" from the perspectives of anyone who viewed the Avatars as evil (or "doubly Good," from the perspectives of those who viewed the Avatars as good)

Okay, now put aside Leo in early-to-mid Season 7.

Substitute any other character in any other season who experienced a shift in their morality and in their threshold for magic (either power advancements, power regressions, or power morphing) in a given situation. Then analyze how other factions within the Charmedverse would have viewed that particular character in that specific context."

In my response, I wondered whether whitelightertony's example illustrated precisely the point he seemingly wished to make. As a consequence, I posted the following:

"Does this illustrate your point? What you have provided is an external view of a character whose actions have an internal consistency from the character's point of view. However, other characters view the effects of those actions and rate them differently. Good intentions only get you so far.

My question remains how this example illustrates your larger point, namely, that good and evil have been defined in dissimilar ways in Charmedverse. What we have here it seems is the kind of cardboard characterization that begs analysis.

Why do the Elders view the Avatars as evil? Is it because innocent lives are lost because they are square pegs that do not fit round holes? Is it because there is seemingly no room for the Elders in a society that is beyond good and evil? Is it because no one bothered to ask the Elders for their opinion?

Any one of these could be the motivation for the Elders to generally condemn the Avatars and Leo specifically. One would hope that their condemnation emerged out of a concern for the innocent lives lost. Yet, given the picture we have of the Elders, especially as it relates to Gideon and Odin, one cannot gloss over crasser motives."

In his usual way, whitelightertony parsed my comments carefully and offered the following:

"Quote:My question remains how this example illustrates your larger point, namely, that good and evil have been defined in dissimilar ways in Charmedverse. What we have here it seems is the kind of cardboard characterization that begs analysis.



Although this may sound like a regurgitation of my earlier post, characters in the Charmedverse may commit actions viewed as "good" by some but simultaneously "evil" by others. And yet, they may still be allowed to retain powers or privileges typically reserved for those who belong to either Good or Evil.

Is there a specific portion of my view that you wanted to hear me clarify or elaborate on, to a more thoughtful extent?


Quote:Why do the Elders view the Avatars as evil? Is it because innocent lives are lost because they are square pegs that do not fit round holes? Is it because there is seemingly no room for the Elders in a society that is beyond good and evil? Is it because no one bothered to ask the Elders for their opinion?

Any one of these could be the motivation for the Elders to generally condemn the Avatars and Leo specifically. One would hope that their condemnation emerged out of a concern for the innocent lives lost. Yet, given the picture we have of the Elders, especially as it relates to Gideon and Odin, one cannot gloss over crasser motives.



I believe that the Elders view themselves as self-appointed guardians of humanity; they may not have known specifically that the Avatars would disintegrate the "difficult" humans from existence in their Utopia, but they probably suspected something along those lines would come to pass if the Avatars reigned supreme.

In addition, I believe you also raise another layer to the perspectives of the Elders; they don't want the Avatars to control Earth because the Elders will end up losing power. The whitelighters will no longer be able to "guide" witches, because witches will no longer listen to their whitelighters. Furthermore, the Elders probably view themselves as superior to demons and warlocks and other Evil creatures, and thus don't want to see a world where Evil goes unpunished.

And, as you alluded to -- yes, the Elders are probably somewhat bitter that the Avatars received the green light to create Utopia without the Elders having any say whatsoever in the matter."

My response elevated the debate to the present level:

"What I am suggesting is that without an elaboration of the moral position of the Elders - or the Avatars, for that matter - it is difficult to accept on its face the contention that good and evil have been defined in dissimilar ways. In fact, I would argue the opposite. Good and evil are only vaguely defined in Charmedverse. Indeed, without the white or black outfits we might be at a loss to explain who is whom.

As for Leo's transformation into an Avatar, I would protest this use of language. Leo embraced the Avatar cause; he was not transformed by it, unless we restrict transformation to mean only the enhancement of powers. For that matter, Cole was not transformed into an Avatar either. (Nor did he embrace their cause!)

Leo's moral stance, as you noted, remains intact despite his alliance with the Avatars. Indeed, it is his unwavering moral stance that causes him to "betray" the Avatars. That the Elders, apart from Sandra and her supporters, failed to "see" this is astonishing and causes us to question the motives of the majority of Elders who did not embrace Sandra's position.

Perhaps what I "object" to most is your willingness to discuss morality in perceptual terms. That this conjures up images of 60s era situational ethics or "moral relativism" (whatever THAT is) is troubling, especially since I don't believe this is your intention.

One way of this perceptional trap is to become clear about the moral stance embraced by each of the actors in Charmedverse. In this respect, the Elders are a curious amalgam. Perhaps their own moral perspective was altered substantially by the Titan attack that nearly wiped them out. Thus, among the survivors, there emerged Elders such as Gideon who embraced an instrumentalism that pitted the Greater Good, as defined by Gideon, above and beyond any of the normal protections of the innocent. To have been willing to kill colleague (Sigmund), whitelighters (Chris) and a baby (Wyatt) in order to save the world from an evil Wyatt is incomprehensible from a moral point of view that assigns the Elders the unchallenged role of Good. That the Charmed Ones were punished for their abuse of magic, but no mention is given to any ramifications for Gideon's betrayal besides an "Ooops!" is absurd.

If anything Sandra represents what is left of the Good in Elderdom. It is certainly not represented by Odin who continues the instrumentalism embraced by Gideon as he manipulates the events in Seven Year Witch."

"
Whitelightertony's response was yet another good parsing. It also cried out for the creation of a new thread. Once again, he wrote:

Quoting me: 'What I am suggesting is that without an elaboration of the moral position of the Elders - or the Avatars, for that matter - it is difficult to accept on its face the contention that good and evil have been defined in dissimilar ways. In fact, I would argue the opposite. Good and evil are only vaguely defined in Charmedverse. Indeed, without the white or black outfits we might be at a loss to explain who is whom.'



Well, specifically focusing on the Elders, for the purposes of this post:

My position of the Elders' morality is as follows: they care deeply about humanity and its future. They want powerless mortals to make good decisions for themselves, and they want creatures of Good to help influence human beings to make those decisions. However, they don't want to force those decisions onto mortals as they would view that as morally stepping outside of their self-imposed limitations.

On the other hand, the Elders are perfectly willing to impose rigid rules and expectations upon magical creatures of Good (including the Charmed Ones and whitelighters). They see this as necessary because, if creatures of Good step outside those established boundaries it could generate chaos, allowing Evil to have an easier time gaining the upper hand.

So that means that not all of the Elders' apparent benevolence toward humanity is due to strictly altruistic motivations. They also have a stake in letting powerless mortals retain their free will, but making sure the Good magical community "stays in line," in order to preserve their existing power structure.

This double standard is what prevents the Elders from being "good" (at least, in traditional terms) IMHO.

An Elder such as Odin is probably one of the more stringent adherents to this party line, while Sandra and her ilk are a bit more liberal within the Elders' hierarchy.

You also raise an excellent point that the Titans' mass decimation of the Elders' ranks may have altered the Elders' overall perception of themselves as gatekeepers of morality; however, I would posit that the aftermath of the Titan attack only hardened (and polarized) the divergent positions of individuals such as Odin and Sandra.


Quotinq me: 'As for Leo's transformation into an Avatar, I would protest this use of language. Leo embraced the Avatar cause; he was not transformed by it, unless we restrict transformation to mean only the enhancement of powers. For that matter, Cole was not transformed into an Avatar either. (Nor did he embrace their cause!)'



I disagree on both counts. First, post-"There's Something About Leo," Leo had access to (and was part of) the Avatar collective...it's almost impossible to imagine he would have been able to tap into their collective unless he had made the full physical transformation into an Avatar. But, creating somewhat of a paradox, he somehow managed to retain his whitelighter powers (although he limited his visits to the heavens to fraternize with his fellow Elders, for obvious reasons).

The same goes for Cole. At the beginning of "Centennial Charmed," Cole makes his "deal" with Alpha and the Avatar of Force. He promptly uses his newfound Avatar power for insidious purposes: to create an alternate universe where Paige was killed before she could become Charmed. Cole wouldn't have had access to such great power -- with such a concentrated amount of his own discretion driving it -- unless he had been elevated to Avatar status. Granted, he is an Avatar for a much shorter period of time than Leo is, but the evidence suggests that he does become a physical Avatar.


Quoting me: 'Leo's moral stance, as you noted, remains intact despite his alliance with the Avatars. Indeed, it is his unwavering moral stance that causes him to "betray" the Avatars. That the Elders, apart from Sandra and her supporters, failed to "see" this is astonishing and causes us to question the motives of the majority of Elders who did not embrace Sandra's position.'



First, I believe the "Odinites" probably outvoted the "Sandristas" when the Elders were deciding Leo's punishment, but perhaps with such an underwhelming plurality (including some Elders who couldn't make a decision one way or another), that Leo's "test" in "The Seven Year Witch" was the closest thing to a compromise they could agree on (which both Odin and Sandra proceeded to attempt to manipulate, according to what each of them believed would be the ideal outcome).

Also, while Sandra was probably more sympathetic to Leo than Odin was, I'm sure she still felt hurt and betrayed that Leo had hid his Avatar promotion from the rest of them -- so those emotions prevented Sandra from taking the position that Leo should go completely unpunished (although she didn't believe Leo's punishment should be as harsh as Odin wanted).


Quote:Perhaps what I "object" to most is your willingness to discuss morality in perceptual terms. That this conjures up images of 60s era situational ethics or "moral relativism" (whatever THAT is) is troubling, especially since I don't believe this is your intention.



But I think that Charmed does touch upon moral relativism (maybe not to the extent that Ljones would prefer, but moreso than critics are willing to acknowledge). You have Good, and you have Evil. And then you have members of the Good and Evil communities who step outside of the accepted parameters of each side of the dichotomy (i.e. the Charmed Ones, Leo, Cole, Wyatt, Chris, Billie, Christy, Gideon, Bianca, Zankou, Brendan Rowe, and even Sandra and both Seers, to an extent).


Quoting me: 'One way of this perceptional trap is to become clear about the moral stance embraced by each of the actors in Charmedverse. In this respect, the Elders are a curious amalgam. Perhaps their own moral perspective was altered substantially by the Titan attack that nearly wiped them out. Thus, among the survivors, there emerged Elders such as Gideon who embraced an instrumentalism that pitted the Greater Good, as defined by Gideon, above and beyond any of the normal protections of the innocent. To have been willing to kill colleague (Sigmund), whitelighters (Chris) and a baby (Wyatt) in order to save the world from an evil Wyatt is incomprehensible from a moral point of view that assigns the Elders the unchallenged role of Good. That the Charmed Ones were punished for their abuse of magic, but no mention is given to any ramifications for Gideon's betrayal besides an "Ooops!" is absurd.'



Gideon clearly veered so far away from the Elders agenda that none of them would have approved of his actions (even those Elders who sympathized with his sentiments). But Gideon was vanquished by Leo before the rest of the Elders had a chance to punish Gideon. Also, while Gideon blatantly strayed outside the parameters of conduct set by Good, he never embraced the common agenda of Evil (in terms of trying to intentionally corrupt powerless mortals).


Quoting me: 'If anything Sandra represents what is left of the Good in Elderdom. It is certainly not represented by Odin who continues the instrumentalism embraced by Gideon as he manipulates the events in Seven Year Witch.'

Sandra also manipulates events in "The Seven Year Witch," although in a more subtle way than Odin. So who's to say which Elder is "right"?"