COLE VS. PHOEBE: LOVE, LUST OR HATE!

[vandergraafk]

Analyze, debate and discuss the unique relationship between Cole and Phoebe. Over the span of two and one-half seasons this relationship evolved considerably. Was it love or merely demonic lust? Was there betrayal or simply a failure to communicate? Was Phoebe ultimately too harsh on Cole and did she really need to vanquish him?

[kat29]

I think there was love in the relationship but mostly there was obsession. Cole was totally obsessed with Phoebe, it completely consumed him even the source couldn't control it. I think Phoebe was overwhelmed by the depth of her feelings for Cole and his for her. The relationship was far too intense to last and it is amazing it lasted as long as it did.

[vandergraafk]

Here was Xenith's take:

Seriously for people to say that Cole didn't love Phoebe and that Phoebe didn't love Cole, that just sounds crazy to me. I mean yeah I agree that it probably was more lust at first, and then by the end of his run during S5 that love was likely pushed towards the background of his motivations, replaced with desire for acceptance and other such issues.

But to say they never loved means you have to have forgotten the times when the fact that they loved each other was a major plot point for an episode.
It was Cole confessing his love to Phoebe that turned her back from being a Banshee in Look Who's Barking. And to say that Phoebe didn't love Cole, you have to have completely forgotten A Witch's Tale Pt 1 & 2 (Which I can't blame you too much since those two pretty much sucked...except the Piper subplot). Regardless though the episode made it very clear that Phoebe LOVED Cole, from the way her confession turned her back to Paige's spell to reveal what was in her heart.

And if Cole only lusted after Phoebe, can you please explain why he was willing to put his life on the line so many times for Phoebe's sake? And not just for Phoebe's life, at least twice twice he put himself on the line to save Piper for Phoebe. (Brain Drain he allows himself to be knocked unconscious and taken to the Source, and Hell Hath he volunteers to be fury bait)

Then there were the times where he not only risk his life was completely willing to lose his own life to Phoebe's. In Black as Cole when he realizes that the only way to stop Sikes is to allow his demonic nature to take over he tells Phoebe to be prepared to use the Balthazar vanquish. A potion that will KILL him in order to save her.

And how about in Charmed & Dangerous, people may try to make the case that he had alterior motives for using the Hollow, but what about before that. Phoebe tells Cole that she saw him being killed by jumping in front of the Source's FBoD to save her. And yet Cole who has no powers, no knowledge that he will have the hollow, and no chance at all of surviving such an encounter refuses to leave as he believes that if he isn't there then the FBoD will instead kill Phoebe.

Do you seriously want to say that he's willing to sacrifice his life to save hers out of pure lust? Because she was good in bed? Because of nothing but pathos? How much more of a sign of love do you need?
How about how a dead Cole, who doesn't seem to have a chance of returning sends Drake to Phoebe to help her find love with SOMEONE ELSE? Why would he want her to find happiness even if her life didn't include him, if not for love?

Heck we haven't even talked about how he was willing to completely change his life for her, he was willing to give up everything he knew of a life as a demon, he offered to have his powers stripped prior to Black as Cole, he was willing to go get a job like a normal person for her...
Likewise Phoebe was willing to give-up most of her life for Cole and to become the Queen of the Underworld. (Granted this was somewhat retconned into the baby made me do it, and because of the human sacrifice factor involved in the coronation that's not necessarily a really bad thing...)

By comparison what exactly did we see Coop do for Phoebe? We know he's a being of love, but how did he really demonstrate his love? When did we see him put his life on line for hers? If anything he showed little more than lust all the way up till Gone with the Witches. Coop wasn't even willing to even put himself out there to Phoebe until after she had told him she wanted him.
After that he talked about loving her a whole lot, but really didn't do much to really show it. When she went to him for moral support he started to offer it, but when the opportunity to bed her arose he jumped at it before ever thinking her behavior was odd. (Plus there was Nymphgate...)
He gets points for looking for her...at Victor's a couple weeks after she dissapeared. A line about checking with Elders or even him searching the Underworld would have been nice, or heck lets hear that he alerted the cupid network to be on the look out, something to show he's willing to go the extra step for her... Each time she asks him to leave he does so without putting up a fight for her, he doesn't offer to help her deal with the Triad problem he just wants to talk about "us".
When told of her death Coop doesn't even break down, he doesn't even offer to go with Piper to help her use the ring to save Phoebe (That can be chalked up to the contrivance fairy I know, but it still unfortunately reflects on the character and their actions in a situation)

In all fairness though we didn't have much time with Coop, nor with Phoop, so given the opportunity to really put his life on the line, or to go that extra step for Phoebe, he may very well do so. So I'm not going to make a case that he didn't love her, because if you believe all the stuff he wouldn't shut-up about he did...

[vandergraafk]

vandergraafk initially replied as follows. Note that this is the sketch of an argument, not the entire argument itself.

Xenith, what you cite are snippets of incipient love. What I think lacking in Charmed is that we never ever really get to see Cole and Phoebe interacting as two normal loving people. We see plenty of Leo and Piper. So, can you really describe the basis of their love and argue definitively that Cole loved Phoebe? I don't know. I would love to, but I find it very difficult to do that.

[vandergraafk]

There seems to be a paradox at the heart of the relationship between Cole and Phoebe. In Centennial Charmed, when Cole expresses his desire to remake the world in order to win back Phoebe he confesses to Avatar Alpha that he and Phoebe were at there best when he was Belthazor. Yet, a human Cole, stripped of his demonic powers, would seem to offer the best prospects for having a satisfying relationship with Phoebe, a Phoebe who could openly practice magic in front of the love of her life (something she could not do with Jason) and a Phoebe could count on the love of her life understanding that her Wiccan duties sometime overwhelmed her obligations as a wife. So, why does Cole choose to re-make the world back to a time when he is not fully human and could potentially remain a threat to the sisters?

One might argue that it was Paige who always presented a threat to Cole. Indeed, at the conclusion of the Fifth Halliwell, an openly hostile Phoebe confronts Paige on this very point. Paige was driven mad by the power brokers' stored power and attacked Cole because of a pre-existing hatred toward Cole. As Phoebe reasoned, a power broker abused Karen was eminently hostile towards Elise because of already existing feelings of hatred between the advice columnist and her boss. Though Paige assures Phoebe that she doesn't hate Cole, but merely distrusts him, Phoebe is not persuaded. And, neither - we presume - would Cole.

Suppose Paige is correct, however. Suppose she doesn't really hate Cole. True, she does needle him. But is that really hatred? In Charmed and Dangerous, Paige expresses regret that Cole was no longer a demon. The sisters could have used his demonic side to banish the Hollow back into the box. As a sarcastic comment, it's a bit over the top. And, it really isn't fair to Cole who is trying hard to make it as a human.

But, Paige is on to something, isn't she? She has already seen how Cole made a mess of his half-day try-out at South Bay Social Services. Somehow she knows deep inside that Cole, as a human, will forever be wrestling with demons. The only difference is that now he no longer has the power to effectively give vent to his demonic passions. How long would it take before a human Cole, tempted by the demonic underworld, would give in to his desire to effectively give meaning to the rage he sometimes feels within? The fact that this rage might be employed against evil-doers is beside the point. Paige fears that the desire to employ violence, even if used for good ends, will in fact become overwhelming. That's one key element in her deep distrust for Cole.

For Cole, although he surely should recognize that his life as a human, free of his demonic past, offers the best chance for a meaningful, loving relationship with Phoebe, he opts for life as Belthazor when remaking the world. For him, he needs to have demonic powers, albeit ones which his human half can control and employ only for good aims, in order to attain equality in his relationship to Phoebe. As a human without any powers, Cole will always feel inferior to Phoebe. He knows that he will always be unable to protect Phoebe when threatened by demonic forces. He must understand that unless he applies himself in the real world and starts at the bottom he will never achieve the personal success in the real world that will allow him to be satisfied with his new, demon free, status. In short, it is his own internalized feelings of inadequacy as a human that will doom his relationship with Phoebe. That's why he opted to recreate the world ante Paige. It was not because of his hatred for Paige, despite his constant stream of sarcasm in this respect. It is because of his own feelings of inadequacy that make him want to recreate a world where the Source still exists - and remains a threat to the surviving sisters - and where the Charmed Ones do not exist (even if that means he must kill Paige before the power of three can be reestablished in order to come back into the good graces of the Source (who nevertheless will remain deeply distrustful of Cole and will dispatch the Seer to keep an eye on him).

[vandergraafk]

Cole's relationship with Phoebe prompts many questions. Here was a response by vandergraafk that appeared in the Charmed Cafe:

From Phoebe's perspective in Season 5, almost nothing that Cole does can be considered good. As Cole sees it, no matter what he does he can never aspire to meet the impossibly high standard that Phoebe has set. The fact that he can never meet her expectations, while still captivated by the desire to be with Phoebe, tears at Cole's soul.

Of course, in the real world, no one can aspire to ever truly be "good" beyond reproach. Not even Mother Theresa accomplished that. I'm certain we all have our foibles. Yes, I am certain that we have also run into people who expect the impossible of us. When these unreasonable demands are fueled by "hatred" or intense anger, then it's all the more problematic for the person who is expected to be perfect.

Fault Phoebe if you will, but Phoebe in large measure is the agent of her own unreasonableness. To the extent that she massively regrets opting to stay with Cole when he became the Source or of giving in to his incessant pleas from the Wasteland, Phoebe has created a monster, her own demands on Cole are simply impossible. She will drive him to his own destruction, as surely as day will turn into night. No matter how fervently she tries to cloak the fate of Cole and her relationship to him as something that was "just not meant to be", Cole's "destiny" is the result of his own failures to accomplish what he perceives to be important ends, winning Phoebe, and Phoebe's own spiteful wrath.

Interestingly, it is his banishment to a plane of existence in the netherworld by the Avatars that allows Cole to gain perspective. He realizes that his obsession with Phoebe has brought about his own destruction and indelibly marked Phoebe's evolution. He can make amends by acting in a manner free of the harsh judgement that Phoebe will hold over him forever. His actions with respect to Drake were indeed noble, even if it meant that Drake would have to make a pact with a sorcerer. More importantly, Cole learns that obsession is not love, that pursuing someone incessantly rarely ends in love.

[vandergraafk]

After a hiatus, vandergraafk was prompted to return to the nature of the relationship between Cole and Phoebe by some comments made in the Charmed Cafe.

Maybe it's best to approach this question by going back to the beginning. From what we know about Phoebe/Freebie, she apparently did not have any lengthy relationships with boys/men. Cole seems to have been the very first. That fact carries with it both positive and negative aspects, aspects that heavily influenced the evolution of Cole and Phoebe's relationship.
Second, it should be noted that Phoebe did not have a stable work history. She was notably bereft of money when she returned to the Manor and little by way of possessions other than the clothes she wore on her and the bike she apparently had left behind before moving to New York. Whether she had also left the majority of her wardrobe in San Francisco before her move to New York I suppose can be inferred, though it is never explicitly mentioned.

Cole's was apparently Phoebe's first real crush that met with substantial reciprocation. True, Cole initially viewed that as a means to gain the confidence of the Charmed Ones in order to destroy them. Still, from Phoebe's perspective, she saw a guy she had a massive crush on take an apparently sincere and equally responsive interest in her. Call Phoebe naive at this stage, if you will, but her behavior and emotions are entirely understandable.

Of course, when Phoebe discovered Cole's dark secret, she reacted negatively (betrayal) and defensively (Cole's silver-lining). Her anger with Cole was tempered by Cole's refusal to do the Triad's bidding. His seeming vanquish of the Triad certainly helped diminish the negativity that Phoebe felt towards Cole. After all, hadn't he chosen his love of Phoebe over his loyalty towards the Triad? On the other hand, by allowing Prue, Piper and Leo to believe that Cole had been vanquished, Phoebe became partner in Cole's duplicity. Of course, Phoebe would argue that she was partnering with his bad side. Rather, she was embracing his good side. Still, from the vantage point of Prue, Piper and Leo, Phoebe had allowed moral clarity to give way to her boyfriend's surreptious actions. Given that Phoebe had always tested limits and had recurring encounters with the police department, her sisters probably understood that this was already latent in Phoebe's essence. She was no goody two shoes like Piper was.

All of this pales in comparison to the betrayal Phoebe must surely have felt when she discovered Cole's dark secret after he was possessed by the Source. Again, Phoebe could excuse this. After all, Cole was being manipulated by the Source. He himself wasn't entirely evil. Besides, she had had good experiences with Cole in the meantime. And, she had had her belief in Cole's virtue after the incident with the Brotherhood in which Cole once again seemed to betray the Charmed Ones.

Of course, the whole issue of Cole's possession by the Source is the subject of some debate. At some point, Cole seems to have embraced the possession and his acsension to the throne. Indeed, once Cole has been thwarted by Phoebe in his attempt to rid himself of the Source by passing his powers and claim to the throne to the wizard (We're Off to See the Wizard), he knows that there can be no halfway measures between Good and Evil. If Cole becomes the new Source and Phoebe his queen, then they - as a couple - must clearly choose sides. If not, the Underworld will rise against the new Source and slay him and his queen.

Phoebe, of course, chooses Cole, but tries to bridge two worlds (her new destiny and her Charmed destiny). She cannot accomplish this feat and the belated recognition that the Seer has manipulated most of this new destiny allows her to find a comfortable way out. Yes, I chose Cole, but it was the Seer who was manipulating events.

When Cole survives the Wasteland and comes back spiritually to Phoebe, she responds to his call. But, things have changed now. For the first time, Phoebe has a job with responsibilities. She likes the economic independence this job offers her, as well as the personal fulfillment she finds in doing a job that corresponds to a certain extent with her educational background. Yet, there is the lure of Cole, albeit a person she can never fully trust again. Is he possessed, who is manipulating events, what do the possession of such powers mean for a Cole who wishes not to do evil and to win back Phoebe? All are legitimate questions and ones that could have borne immense fruit during Season 5, had Julian not left the show. Nor did it help that the writers whacked Cole's character around like a billiard ball. One week he saves Phoebe (Witch Way Now?), another week he learns that it is not about what he wants but what Phoebe (and he) should want (A Witch's Tail Part 1) and rescues Phoebe again (A Witch's Tail), a third week he has Phoebe's rejection rubbed in his face and rescues Phoebe (after she's turned into a pumpkin), a fourth week he plays the hero and strangles Phoebe (Siren Song). yada yada yada. Whew!

I think Phoebe is mature enough to recognize that Cole is trying hard. But, she has moved on. Her job and her distrust of Cole's vast new powers and the battery acid for blood he has leave her no longer open to Cole's efforts at winning her back. There cannot be and never will be a reconciliation between Cole and Phoebe. Phoebe has grown and matured and recognizes the relationship for what it was: a partially reciprocated first

Clearly, Phoebe was quite fearful of Cole. She did not want to fall under his charms again. Nor did she trust herself fully to resist his charm. She sought and found refuge in her work. Cole, on the other hand, really needed to learn what it means to love a woman. As Darryl noted, it really isn't about what Cole wants. It's what Phoebe wants and is willing to accept from Cole. For the early part of Season 5, Phoebe is just beginning to establish herself as an independent entity apart from Cole. She is maturing as a self-confident working girl enjoying the effort and success she is having as an advice columnist.

Cole is at a loss. He won't do evil, and he can't quite be just good. Whether it's turning Darryl into a water cooler (bad tactic) in order to reduce the cacophony from too many people talking at once (good goal) or trying to actually do good deeds (saving Darryl and the woman in the burning apartment), nothing ever quite works out right for Cole. His despair at finding his way in a world where he may never again have Phoebe where he too must very well be wary of his own prodigious powers, especially when future Baccara tells him that he is destined to become the head of the underworld in the not too distant future probably will end up in his desire to leave the world: suicide by witch. However, the episodes, although they point in this direction, never quite convince us that this is the only way out or even the most logical resolution of Cole's dilemma, as long as Phoebe rejects him and Cole can find no one else to love (Paige?).

The vanquish of Cole is entirely accidental, as it were. True, the Charmed Ones never really understood or analyzed the consequences of Cole's demonic possession by the Source. Their attempted vanquish of him had everything to do with his attack on Sam, Paige and Leo in Sam I Am. His use of the law to take down the Charmed Ones in order to gain access to the Nexus and either win over a Phoebe possessed by the Shadow or to die a violent death as the Charmed Ones succeed in containing the threat to the Nexus does not lessen the threat that Cole poses to the Charmed Ones. Nor is the fact that other demons will try to manipulate a very powerful Cole (Fear) diminish the Charmed Ones' distrust of Cole. Yet, the sisters never vanquish this Cole. Instead, the Cole who is vanquished is Belthazor, as Cole, imbued with a power boost from the Avatars, seeks to re-write history. THAT Cole deserved vanquish and was finally vanquished by a Phoebe who had long since lost all of her illusions about Cole.

It is only because of quantum entanglement (science nerd alert!) that the vanquish of alternate reality Cole/Belthazor also led to the vanquish of indestructible Cole/Avatar.