PHOEBE'S POWERS

[vandergraafk]

In The Book of Three, Volume 2, Phoebe's powers were listed as precognition and levitation. Precognition, clairvoyance or premonition: they are all more or less the same thing. Still, during Season 6 she did develop the power of empathy, which, I suppose, is an extension of the power of precognition. She also developed the ability to channel demonic thoughts. This allowed her to reverse the direction of a fireball (Used Karma).

[vandergraafk]

Xenith commented on Phoebe's ability to redirect energy balls and expressed his exasperation in this regard in the Charmed Cafe. Here is his commentary in full:

She also developed the ability to channel demonic thoughts. This allowed her to reverse the direction of a fireball (Used Karma).


I still don't really understand how that all worked. I mean besides the fact that her so called empathy was more of a combination of telepathic ability and empathy, I could I guess understand how she could tap into the person/demon's power with it. I am totally fine with Phoebe countering Valkyrie Piper with her own TK.

But I just don't get how she could possibly use a power that the person/demon themselves do not seem to have? I mean honestly when did we ever see a demon that was capable of redirecting its own FBoD in mid flight? I honestly can't think of one demon we saw that had that power. So then how could Phoebe by tapping into their thoughts/emotions actually do something that they can't? About the only way I can think that could be possible is if that demon also had TK. However the idea of her being able to TK multiple FBoD coming from multiple angles/trajectories and send them all back to their demon of origin? That's a bit much for me to buy. Really against an average shimmering/FBoD chucking demon the most it seems like she should have been able to do was to extinguish the FBoD. (Something many demons have been shown capable of doing. Although usually that is in their hand, so even that may be a slight stretch)

[vandergraafk]

vandergraafk was equally exasperated by this twist in the development of Phoebe's power of empathy and replied with the following:

Xenith, I'll confess that I share your concern regarding Phoebe's power to empathically redirect energy balls. I guess she does this by reading the intention of the projector of the energy ball and channeling her thoughts contrary to the intended direction. Apparently, her thoughts can overcome demonic intentions. Fortunately, this was only used in Used Karma and Soul Survivor. Otherwise, we would really have a debate.

[vandergraafk]

Whatever Phoebe's powers are, she tended to view them as lesser than her sisters' powers because they were not "active". Levitation certainly was an active power; and, even though its relationship to precognition is vague at best, Phoebe never regained this power after it was stripped from her by the Tribunal. Her other "active" power, the ability to telephathically redirect energy balls as evidenced in Season 6, was not accessed by her again. So, was Phoebe really the witch with the least. Or, as noted in Ms. Hellfire, the one whose powers were negligible?

Ljones thought any such notion was a mistake made by the writers as she wrote in the Charmed Cafe:

I have never viewed Phoebe as magically weak in compare to the other sisters, just because she possessed precognition. Even the series has pointed out (at least in Season 1) that many have desired to have an ability similar to Phoebe's. Information is considered to be a major source of power - even in the real world. And one of the things that the show's writers have upset me about was the show's tendency to dismiss Phoebe's precognitive ability as weak in compare to her sister's abilities. This, in my opinion, was a stupid and wrong thing to do.

My reply may come as a surprise, delayed as it was by illness:

While ill, I had the opportunity to read most of James Reese's novel "Book of Shadows". In this book, which has much, much more to do with witchcraft than Charmed ever will, precognition is recognized as one of the most important powers a witch could have. Of course, this was accomplished my salves and potions, not innately as Charmed would have it.

Phoebe's problem has always been that she considered an active power to be superior to a passive power. But why? Because she couldn't kick demon butt? But to have the power of precognition was especially useful in many, many episodes: The Eyes Have It is just one among many. That her precognitive power got an added boost - and nearly cost her her life - in that same episode from a gypsy talisman is fine by me.

[vandergraafk]

whitelightertony took this to a more general discussion of Phoebe's specific powers:


Quote:I have never viewed Phoebe as magically weak in compare to the other sisters, just because she possessed precognition. Even the series has pointed out (at least in Season 1) that many have desired to have an ability similar to Phoebe's. Information is considered to be a major source of power - even in the real world. And one of the things that the show's writers have upset me about was the show's tendency to dismiss Phoebe's precognitive ability as weak in compare to her sister's abilities. This, in my opinion, was a stupid and wrong thing to do.



I'm not saying that precognition/clairvoyance in and of itself makes Phoebe weaker just because it's a passive power. But let's look at the evidence, when it comes to Phoebe:

- by Season 3, Phoebe still can't receive premonitions and flashbacks at will, despite the fact that Prue and Piper have gained decent control over their powers

- when Phoebe receives the power advancement of levitation, it takes awhile for her to get accustomed to it...you could argue that Phoebe doesn't gain a fair amount of control over her levitation ability until Season 4 (at which point she still can't get premonitions - - her base power - - on command)

- in Season 5, Phoebe's power advances to include astral premonitions (and astral flashbacks), but she receives them very sporadically (and she can't seem to leave them at will)

- it isn't until Season 6 when Phoebe's power surges to include empathy (which she and her sisters end up needing to drink potions for, to get it under control)....finally, by mid-Season 6, Phoebe is able to use her empathy WITH EASE as an active power to channel other people's powers

- THEN, Phoebe's powers are stripped by The Tribunal, after she abuses them - - indicating that Phoebe is more pront to using her power for greed than her sisters

- in Season 7, Phoebe slowly earns her premonitions back, but they are few and far between; she also gains empathic abilities every so often, but they are more in the form of passive sensing - - a mere shell of her previous empathy

So even when she gets new powers, Phoebe seems to have a hard time keeping them. This indicates to me that she has been influenced (even if only subconsciously) by at least some of her more recent past life's characteristics of selfishness and hedonism.

So yes, clairvoyance is potentially valuable and enviable as a magical power. However, in Phoebe's case, she is unable to use it to the full extent she could. I'm sure there are other witches or psychic magical creatures who are able to walk around touching objects/people, and instantly receive premonitions or other visions. Possibly even using psychic manipulation to "will" these visions and sustain them over long periods of time to help themselves receive more information (as The Seer and Kira The Second Seer seemed to). But in this respect, Phoebe is very restricted.


Quote:By the way, as long as the spirits of the sisters or anyone else continue being reborn into new bodies on this earth is regarded as a sign in many religions that those very spirits are being punished due to past trangressions. Which means that the past lives Phoebe, Prue, Paige and Piper are ALL probably guilty of some transgression. We already know that Paige also had an evil past life.



I don't dispute that all of the Charmed Ones have probably had past lives who've sinned, or were even a form of "evil." But the point is that Phoebe's most immediate past life is the one who's sinned the greatest, compared to her sisters.

[vandergraafk]

This brought on a point by point rebuttal from Xenith who offered this in the Charmed Cafe:

Quote:- by Season 3, Phoebe still can't receive premonitions and flashbacks at will, despite the fact that Prue and Piper have gained decent control over their powers


Apples and oranges to me. Different powers can probably take different amount of times to "master" and to develop. And I don't recall a lot of times in the early seasons that Phoebe tried to have premonition and failed.


Quote:- when Phoebe receives the power advancement of levitation, it takes awhile for her to get accustomed to it...you could argue that Phoebe doesn't gain a fair amount of control over her levitation ability until Season 4 (at which point she still can't get premonitions - - her base power - - on command)


What do you call "a fair amount of control"? She seems quite able to use levitation perfectly by Power Outage, the seventh episode of season 3. She is able to easily use it dodge FBoD and in combination with her martial arts?


Quote:- in Season 5, Phoebe's power advances to include astral premonitions (and astral flashbacks), but she receives them very sporadically (and she can't seem to leave them at will)


Actually the only time in S5 she had an astral premonition was when she was holding the "evil eye talisman". Which is why many suspect that the talisman was responsible for boosting her powers to that level. And we never saw Phoebe really even "try" to leave the premonition, so whose to say that she couldn't, and if not the first time then after some practice possibly she can... (The only other time she AP's into a premonition is her Ladybug one is S8. Again she has no desire to leave it until she does so who's to say when she can.)


Quote:- it isn't until Season 6 when Phoebe's power surges to include empathy (which she and her sisters end up needing to drink potions for, to get it under control)...


How do we know what is normal for Empathy? Father Thomas made it sound like he always heard the voices, and it's just a matter of taking the time and learning to filter them from your own thoughts. (Which not too long after her sisters had taken the blocking potion Phoebe seemed to be able to do with other people.)
Although really I'm not sure how that would contribute to making Phoebe magically weak, if anything she might be a little mentally/emotionally weak if she had trouble controlling the power, but the power did what it was supposed to do and she was never in the kind of position where it would kill her...


Quote:- THEN, Phoebe's powers are stripped by The Tribunal, after she abuses them - - indicating that Phoebe is more pront to using her power for greed than her sisters


Which...doesn't really make her magically weak. Morally weak maybe, though how was her trying to fore baby premonitions worse than Paige conjuring her sex toy? Or Piper changing reporters into rats?


Quote:- in Season 7, Phoebe slowly earns her premonitions back, but they are few and far between; she also gains empathic abilities every so often, but they are more in the form of passive sensing - - a mere shell of her previous empathy.


Exactly what are you referring to that she sensed with empathy? I don't recall seeing anything that even slightly indicated that she earned her other powers back.


Quote:So even when she gets new powers, Phoebe seems to have a hard time keeping them. This indicates to me that she has been influenced (even if only subconsciously) by at least some of her more recent past life's characteristics of selfishness and hedonism.


If you want to make the case that Phoebe is influenced by her past lives then fine, after all what is a reincarnation but the recycling of a soul. Again totally not proving that she is magically weak.


Quote:So yes, clairvoyance is potentially valuable and enviable as a magical power. However, in Phoebe's case, she is unable to use it to the full extent she could. I'm sure there are other witches or psychic magical creatures who are able to walk around touching objects/people, and instantly receive premonitions or other visions.
Possibly even using psychic manipulation to "will" these visions and sustain them over long periods of time to help themselves receive more information (as The Seer and Kira The Second Seer seemed to). But in this respect, Phoebe is very restricted.


The Seer has been alive for over one hundred years. Kyra may have been as well. (We know she knew met Zankou prior to his imprisonment, and she made other various comments that suggest she has been alive a very long time) Phoebe has only had her powers from 7.5 to 8 years. I would certainly expect that the two Seers would be able to control their powers much better than Phoebe with that much more experience than her... (Kyra even told Phoebe that touching things was something she had to do at first. We have no idea how long it took her to move beyond that. 1 year, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years?) Heck even Melinda Warren probably had close to 20 years to learn to control her powers before she died. Yet she never saw Matthew Tate's betrayal coming. I think you would need to give Phoebe much more time before declaring her magically weak...


Quote:I'm not saying that precognition/clairvoyance in and of itself makes Phoebe weaker just because it's a passive power. But let's look at the evidence, when it comes to Phoebe:



Look at what her powers are capable of after ONLY 8 years. Fine Phoebe may be a fool and doesn't often use them or use them to their full capacity, but that doesn't change the fact that she's far from a slouch in the magic department...

Premonitions: In color, full audible sound, no choppy breaks, most of the time able to force them by touching, able to AP into them.

Empathy: Able to redirect multiple FBoD at once, to know exaclty where an attack is coming from to dodge it, to tap into the active powers of other people/demons, to not only sense emotions but the reasons/words behind them in a form of telepathy.

[vandergraafk]

Upon further reflection, I offered these thoughts:

Let me try my hand at Phoebe's powers when viewed on a comparative basis. As I indicated earlier in agreement with ljones, the writers did a disservice to the character of Phoebe when they themselves portrayed these powers to be of a lesser quality. From a wiccan perspective, this may not be warranted at all. In the event, Phoebe, the voice given to Phoebe by sundry writers, carries forward this downplaying of her own ability by comparing "passive" precognitive powers to "active" supernatural ones. Whether that is warranted in Wicca, I'll let witches debate.

But, consider this: Phoebe's ability carries with it very, very powerful potential. As Xenith noted above, the Seer had practiced her craft for over 1,000 years (not the 100 years indicated). Kyra may have been very well experienced, too, for the reasons cited by Xenith. Even the Oracle was pretty well versed in seeing things in the future.

None of these precognitive abilities is perfect. The Seer's were probably the most advanced, given her long record of experience. Perhaps in her mortal life, Phoebe might approach that level of ability, but let's not be too optimistic. Still, the Seer's visions were not flawless. Nor was her analysis perfect. For example, when she told the Source that he would lose in a battle against the Charmed Ones, she erroneously concluded that this would be because the Charmed Ones perhaps possess more power. What not make the equally obvious suggestion that perhaps their tactics were far superior? Or, perhaps the Charmed Ones' judgement was less clouded by hubris than the Source's?

To have a vision, to put the pieces together to form a sensible mosaic, to filter out all of the white noise (Prue's comment in Love Hurts when she had Phoebe's power), to deal with the expanded form of this power: empathy and perhaps the channeling of powers telepathically against the abusers, all of these are no small matter. It is a mistake to compare them with active powers in the sense that Prue, Piper, and Paige possessed them.

Reference is often made to Crimes and Witch-Demeanors when Phoebe is stripped of her powers by the Tribunal. Unfortunately, I don't think any of us has sat down and really tried to analyze it. I know that some are disappointed that the Charmed Ones really weren't taken to account for all of their misdeeds (Hyde School Reunion, etc.). I'm not in that camp, though I do find it useful to examine use and abuse of powers by the Charmed Ones, especially as it relates to the Avatar experiment. Nevertheless, we know that in the end Phoebe is the sole Charmed One who pays a price. A price for what?

On the surface, Phoebe has "forced" a premonition that has resulted in exposure. Exposure forces the Cleaners to re-write history so that Darryl, an innocent participant, goes from the target of the demonically possessed criminal to the aggressor who mercilessly murders a would be criminal. Yet, where is the direct connection between Phoebe's "forced" premonition and exposure? Where, too, is it deemed that "forced" premonitions are necessarily a bad thing to effect? In a sense, one could argue that virtually all of Phoebe's premonitions are forced. One she commits herself to touching an object, she is hoping to bring about a premonition. Sometimes they happen, sometimes they don't. How exactly does one "force" a premonition?

No, what the Charmed Ones are guilty of is to act hastily on this premonition. Isn't that what happened in All Hell Breaks Loose? Phoebe had a premonition that the doctor was about to be attacked. The Charmed Ones acted in securing his safety, but hastily pursued Shax into the street. How is what Phoebe did any worse than what the Charmed Ones have repeatedly risked, i.e., exposure, in countless episodes?

Of course, Barbas played a role in "forcing" the exposure by having Inspector Sheridan, as well as the criminal, possessed. He, more than anyone, forced the Cleaners to act. Once this was revealed, the case against the Charmed Ones - as sisters - collapses. To save face, however, the Tribunal strips Phoebe temporarily of her powers.

I don't know about you, but I find the resolution of this episode particularly galling. The stripping of Phoebe's powers is not the logical result of anything going on in this "trial". It is a purely arbitrary act that unfortunately helps ruin a great character, for now Phoebe will be reduced - more or less - to Phoeme, a woman more in pursuit of an MRS degree than a Masters Degree.

Worse: once Phoebe's powers were stripped and slowly brought back (precognition only) and used infrequently, the writers painted themselves into a corner. Whereas Phoebe's precognition could have put paid to the whole embarrassment of the "ultimate battle" by revealing the true Christy or the TRIAD's spiritual renaissance, we are left with a Phoebe who can only sink lower and lower on the male food chain. Leslie was not too bad, but he wasn't a Jason Dean. But, Dex: Dex was an embarrassment to all men. And, Coop: well, he's not even human!

So, let's not try to denigrate Phoebe's powers of precognition, despite the best efforts of sundry writers to sully a very nifty power. Orbing, blasting, freezing, directing and redirecting objects is not the be all and end all. There's a lot that precognition has to offer.

[avallach]

In the first few Season 1 episodes, there have been suggestions that Phoebe is able to willfully summon premonitions. In Episode 2 "I've Got You Under My Skin", Pheobe was able to forcast the winning lotto numbers, though the powers-that-be (the Elders?) ensured that she could not capitalize on this blantant misuse of her power for personal gain. In "Dead Man Dating", she got a job as a hotel psychic, presumably to earn money for Prue's birthday gift, and not for her pesonal gain. She appeared to able to use her power to forcast future events at will, though she did unexpectedly recieve a premonition fortelling a death of a guest).

Soon, however, it seemed like Phoebe receives premonitions for a specific reason, usually to warn of a demon attack and/or to save an innocent. It seems to me that this implies that there is some outside agency (again the Elders?) that is somehow is directing what premonitions she is recieving. Certainly in "Wicca Envy", Rex was able to force a false premontion. So this might explain why Pheobe is not able to control her power as she like, since she is merely a conduit of her visions.

I would not call premonition a "weak" power, for many a time the sisters relied on it to save innocents. However, it is not an active power that can be used directly against a demon. Pheobe compensates for this by learning martial arts skills. In Season 4, "Enter the Demon", Cole also teaches her combat stick fighting (at least until Paige accidently switched bodies with her). When she acquires levitation, she makes use of levitating in combination with martial arts to truly becomes an ass-kicking Charmed One.

Unfortunately, both Phoebe's character and powers suffered under the poor writing and quality that characterize the later seasons. I never understood what empathy was supposed to do anything other than causing her to seduce Jason in the office. This thing about Pheobe channelling demon's powers through some sort of empathic connection is stretching it for me. And why couldn't she tell that Chris was not who he appeared to be?

Worse though was stipping Pheobe of her powers in "Crimes and Wtich Demeanors". Why? Essentially, because Barbas said so. Never mind that he was the one responsible for what transpired. Pheobe's crime was she supposedly "forced" a premontion, this time it was not to win the lottery but to stop the phantasm demon, which isn't it her job? I really dislike this episode..why was Darryl getting the chair the only way to cover the exposure?, the concept of the Tribunal, the way Barbas got away free, everything. Episodes like this caused me to stop watching the show (for the sake of following discussions on this board, I'm trying to catch up via TNT).

So after this, Phoebe has no active powers. It also seems she lost her martial arts abilities, for during demon battles, she is reduced to being the Charmed Decoy. Her character greatly suffered as well, but I think thats a topic for another thread.

[vandergraafk]

Pretty strong! I am saddened that the decline in Phoebe's character caused you - and perhaps many others - to stop watching. You've pointed to one possible reason: the strange result of Crimes and Witch Demeanors. However one views the actions of the Charmed Ones as they attempt to solve demonic inspired problems without leaving evidence of magic, the conclusion reached by the Tribunal makes very little sense. One might suggest that the judgement really reflects the pique that the Cleaners felt towards the Charmed Ones. Remember: it was Phoebe who decided to do damage to at the marketplace to force the Cleaners to appear. Was this there revenge?

Worse is the willingness, nay actual relief, that seems to characterize Phoebe's acceptance at the suspension of her powers. Early Phoebe would have put up a much sturdier defense and complained a lot more loudly. PhoeME, the caricature Phoebe often became during the Jason and post Jason period, however, was so sex obsessed that her powers hardly mattered to her. Two good reasons to not like what the writers were doing with a great character. On the other hand, Phoebe took the lead in stopping the Avatars. A certain redemption was in order and finally provided.

[Dan]

Dec 13, 2006 12:14:10 GMT -5 vandergraafk said:

In The Book of Three, Volume 2, Phoebe's powers were listed as precognition and levitation. Precognition, clairvoyance or premonition: they are all more or less the same thing. Still, during Season 6 she did develop the power of empathy, which, I suppose, is an extension of the power of precognition. She also developed the ability to channel demonic thoughts. This allowed her to reverse the direction of a fireball (Used Karma).

[Dan]

Pheobes powers should have progressed to the use of fire. Everytime ahe was influenced by evil the writers always gave her fire powers and in pardon my past life she was able to use fire. Would have been cool to see how that progressed but levitation... Do not understand how that is a natural progression from the powrer of premonition. Would have been more logical to give her the power if telepathy.